juggernaught
I know this are some pretty basic questions, but in the past, I have screwed up this install and am not wanting to repeat these same problems. I have a used alum. performer intake to install on my rebuilt 360.
I have a felpro valley pan gasket. Will this brand/style be apropriate or should I up grade for a better seal?
Instructions for a performer intake say to use edel. gasgacinch sealant on the heads and "head side of the gaskets". Is the valley pan the only "gasket" used or is there another gasket used in congunction with the valley pan against the heads?
I also have some "pitting" and corroision around the water ports. What is the best way to make sure this area is properly sealed?
Hopefully this info will also benefit some other non-motorheads out there. Thanks
Which type of RTV is best for this application. Red, black, or blue?
How necessary is the shield beneath the EGR? Is it necessary to swap to the "new" alum intake?
I did have my heads surfaced and they were previously rebuilt. How can I check that the alignment of the ports/bolt holes and sealing surfaces are still good. Do they make gasket kits for heads that have been milled?
I am trying to order any necessary parts ASAP as I will be back at home soon to complete the build next week.
tufcj
The valley pan and rubber end gaskets are all you need. Someone does make a composite GM style gasket that eliminates the valley pan, but you run the risk of sucking oil into the PCV system, especially if there's no tin baffle on the bottom of the manifold.
I always coat the area around the intake ports (both sides) with copper gasket spray. Around the water ports I use RTV (my preference is Permatex Ultra Gray). I go around the port, set the pan in place, then run a bead around before setting the manifold. The 4 outermost holes in the valley pan have a flange that sit in the holes in the head to hold it in place. Also add a dab of RTV where the valley pan meets the rubber end gaskets. Installed this way, I've never had one leak. Some people will say to delete the rubber gaskets and just use a bead of RTV, but I've always used the gaskets.
Bob
tufcj
juggernaught
Thanks TUFCJ.......some of these questions I ask are because of the Edelbrock instructions (which do recommend to leave out the rubber gaskets at each end).I have never left the end rubber gaskets out before, but am always open to new and better ways of doing things. That said, practical experience is what really shows what works. So, the rubber stays.
I have some of this "gasgacinch" sealant, but have only used it on some thin paper gaskets as it reminds me of rubber cement and I am not sure it is best suited for higher temp applications.I have not used the copper gasket spray before, but it would seem to fit the bill. What is the "working time" for the copper spray?
I like your suggestion of the "ultra" series of permatex, which I haven't used as of yet. You suggested the "grey". Have you ever used the "blue" . The only difference seems to be the "oil resistence" of the blue.
msalaba
My first attemp at installing an Edelbrock intake was a miserable failure. I used the Fel-Pro Valley pan gasket. I used Ultra Black around the water ports and front and rear valley sealing. I threw the rubber gaskets away.
A lot of oil went threw this engine. (out the exhaust) I thought the valve guides were shot. I decided to rebuild the heads. When I pulled the intake, I noticed oil tracking on the intake ports. Turns out Ultra Black is a thicker consistancy than Ultra Gray. So, what happened is the Ultra Black prevented the intake from fully seating.
My engine builder recommended using a spray-on gasket sealer from Napa (sprays on red) on the intake ports and Ultra Gray on the water ports. Seals perfect. i.e. no more burning oil. I also used the Right Stuff to seal the front and rear valley. Oil has not leaked there yet in 2 years. I also use the right stuff to seal valve covers and diff covers. I have never had a leak using this product. It is a PITA to remove the covers later!
Hope this help ya.
tufcj
I think the copper spray (Permatex) stays tacky for about 1/2 hour. I use the gray RTV just because it looks more "factory" and I think blue RTV squished out from joints looks amateur. Never had it leak, even on diff covers without a gasket. The key with any RTV is cleanliness, any oil residue will keep it from bonding to the metal and cause a leak. Brake cleaner is great for prep.
Look at the rear cover on Cletus' truck some time. A blue bead of RTV 1/2 wide around the cover? WTF??? :?: :?: :?: :?: #-o #-o
Bob
tufcj
ironman_gq
The copper coat never really dries and stays tacky until something covers it up like dust/dirt. I use it all the time when I'm sealing something up without a gasket. I do this a lot on small engines with the heads and cylinders to get more compression. as long as both parts are flat the copper spray works really well and helps conduct heat
juggernaught
so msalaba.........did you use the rubber gaskets at the ends of the manifold or remove them?
msalaba
Sealant 101:
[img]http://c2.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/148/m_b86d66f549f94860bc727f6b9b946e31.jpg[/img]
Return equipment to service immediately when you make leak-proof gaskets in just one minute with the Right Stuff.® This latest elastomeric rubber gasket technology is blowout resistant and outperforms pre-cut gaskets. Specified on production lines by GM, Ford, DaimlerChrysler and Mercedes-Benz. Temperature range -75°F to 450°F (-59°C to 232°C) continuous, 500°F (260°C) intermittent.; resists ATF, coolant, oil and other shop fluids. Protects against leaks caused by vibration and thermal expansion. Sensor-safe.
Suggested Applications: Automotive and marine gaskets, valve covers, gearbox covers, pumps, compressors, oil pans, thermostat housings, water pumps
[img]http://c4.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/138/m_539b139520df46758429b7a7aa215bcb.jpg[/img]
OEM specified. For dealership warranty requirements, ensures extended drivetrain warranty compliance. Fast-curing formula. Sensor safe, low odor, noncorrosive. Meets performance specs of OE silicone gaskets. Retains high flexibility, oil resistance properties through use of a patented adhesion system. Temperature range -65ºF to 500ºF (-54°C to 260°C) intermittent; resists auto and shop fluids and vibration.
Suggested Applications: Valve covers, oil pans, intake manifold end seals, timing covers, transmission pans
[img]http://c1.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/126/m_e9d741a67ef24dabb1686f32a4982038.jpg[/img]
OEM specified. Designed specially for high-torque and high vibration applications, like those common in import engines, this premium RTV gasket maker exceeds manufacturers' performance requirements. Noncorrosive and low-odor. Maximum vibration resistance, with outstanding resistance to oils, cooling and shop fluids. Guaranteed not to leak. Temperature range -65ºF to 500ºF (-54°C to 260°C) intermittent.
Suggested Applications: Valve covers, oil pans, intake manifold end seals, timing covers, water pumps, thermostat housings
[img]http://c3.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/134/m_e9bf676e4a194f43956c5c714632bbc2.jpg[/img]
OEM specified. Permatex® Ultra silicones were developed to meet today’s technology changes. Sensor-safe, low odor, noncorrosive. Outstanding oil resistance and joint movement values. Eight times more flexible than cork/composite gaskets; three times more oil resistant than conventional silicones. Temperature range -65ºF to 500ºF (-54°C to 260°C) intermittent; resists auto and shop fluids and vibration.
Suggested Applications: Valve covers, oil pans, timing covers, transmission pans, differential covers
[img]http://c4.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/148/l_b6395ffb1de44a03af47e255e8ca3fcf.jpg[/img]
Fast-drying, metallic copper sealant helps dissipate heat, prevents gasket burnout and improves heat transfer. Fills minor surface irregularities. Seals instantly. Fills hot spots and surface imperfections. Temperature range -50°F to 500°F (-45°C to 260°C); resists all types of automotive fluids, especially gasoline.
Suggested Applications: Cylinder head gaskets, carburetor gaskets, exhaust manifold gaskets and other high temperature applications
[img]http://c4.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/132/m_ead32c943f974625a2204dcc35731b6b.jpg[/img]
Fast-drying all-purpose sealant dries to a highly tacky, non-brittle film. A reliable general adhesive. Remains effective under temperatures of -65°F to 500°F (-54°C to 260°C). Resists gasoline, oil, antifreeze, axle lube, kerosene, propane and butane.
Suggested Applications: Valve covers, fuel pumps, carburetors, manifold gaskets; seals all felt, cork, metal, paper, rubber and asbestos gaskets
There is a reason for the different suggested applications. It has to so with material properties and density. The reason Ultra Gray is used around the water ports is that it is "thinner" than ultra black. It is more consistent under clamp loads. i.e. torqued intake manifold. Hence when I used Ultra Black, my engine ate oil.
The difference between copper coat and spray tack is the addition of copper. Copper is a high conductor and promotes heat transfer. I do not want to transfer any more heat from my heads to my intake than I have to. Copper coat on headers with copper gaskets would be adventageous due to heat transfer.
The Right Stuff is very dense and high bonding strength compared to Ultra Black. I use Right Stuff on my diff covers due to it's excellent bonding characteristics. I play in the rocks + axle parts are expensive = need for a great seal. When I drain the diff oil I take out all the bolts and literally chisel the cover off with a hammer and putty knife.
I'm not trying to be a dick, just offer some good tech.[/img]
msalaba
[quote=juggernaught]so msalaba.........did you use the rubber gaskets at the ends of the manifold or remove them?[/quote]
I do not use them. They like to leak for me. I like to keep my oil in the engine not on it. I put a 1/4" bead of Ultra Black on the front and rear of the block staying 1/4" away from where the heads meet the block. I let this bead dry for 1/2 hour. I spray both sides of the valley pan gasket around the intake ports with spray high tack. (helps to hang the gasket with wire or a bungee) If I get some spray tack near the water ports, I clean it with laquer thinner. I put a SMALL bead (about 1/16") of Ultra Gray around the water ports on the head. Then set the valley pan gasket in place. I put another 1/4" bead of Ultra Black on the front and rear valley this time comming about 1/4" onto the heads. I put another small bead of Ultra Gray around the water ports on the gasket. Then set the intake in place, being carefull and set it on as straight and level as I can. Put the bolts in and torque to 43 ft. lbs. in 2 steps (first step being snug then torque) starting in the middle and working out.
The TSM says to use a non-hardening sealer such as Jeep Gasket-in-a-tube, or equivalent to both sides of the replacement manifold gasket and use Permatex #2 to the end seals. Make sure all screws are properly started before tightening.
Hope that helps.....
juggernaught
A perfect answer to All of my questions msala. I could not have asked for anything better. Thanks for taking allof the time for consolidating all that info. This thread and your directions will go in my file and will greatly help me on the instal this next week.
On another note. Just cleaned my used Performer intake and looked "down" the carb. mount to see two 3/8" holes, one one each "side" of the penum floor. I cannot tell if these are "factory" or someones attempt to be an aftermarket engineer. Any input on these holes would be helpful before I mount it next week.
tufcj
If it's an EGR type manifold (P/N 3731), then the holes are for the EGR passages. If you don't run the EGR valve, then you'll need to cap it at the back of the manifold. If it's a 2131 (non-EGR) then I have no idea.
Bob
tufcj
juggernaught
Yes, it is an EGR type manifold. Answers that question I guess. Just wanted to make sure the manifold had not been "customized" by some backyard mechanic. Thanks
juggernaught
Just recieved my set of ARP manifold bolts in s/s and was very surprised at how much shorter they were than the flanged-head bolts that I removed. While the f/h bolts are 1 1/4" long the s/s bolts are only 1 15/16" long ( not counting the washer). This doesn't sound like much, but this doesn't leave alot of threads in the block after bolt-up. The old f/h bolts were definately "max" length at 1 1/4".
Just rechecked my bolt-up and with the ARP bolts I get 3 turns on the bolt which gives me 3/16" to maybe 1/4' contact with the block. That is not enough for a 3/8" bolt. What's the deal?
Also looks like the previous owner of the manifold decided to "over-size" the bolt holes to 1/2"+, which is very large for a 3/8" bolt. Don't know why he did that. Iwonder if the larger bolt hole in the manifold will affect the seal of the gaskets? Will do a closer inspection of the manifold tomorrow after sand blasting to look for more surprises.
tufcj
Every aluminum manifold I've seen has "oversize" bolt holes. It helps get the bolts started before the gasket is compressed. Just use a flat washer under the bolt, and you'll be fine.
Bob
tufcj
juggernaught
Interesting that the included washers in the package do not cover the entire hole. But, my biggest concern was the bolt length. Decided to forgo the ARP bolts in favor of some Mr Gasket bolts that are longer.
juggernaught
After installing the Mr gasket bolts (which I didn't like either) found a bag of s/s bolts I had purchased from Totally Stainless in a engine kit that were MUCH better than either the M/G or ARP bolts. These s/s bolts were actually the right length and had the proper size washers. I would Not recommend the ARP manifold bolts to anyone. Will start a new thread with some pics on the rebuild. Thanks to everyone for there input....the manifold installed easily.
