E85 AMC Motor Technical Discussion

The PIG Smith

DISCLAIMER
I posted this elsewhere and had no comments.
For me, this just a mental excise.
I do not use E85 and I am not planning build an E85 motor.
Please keep this discussion technical and fight the urge to tell what you really think about E85.

Edelbrock‚Äôs E-85 Carburetor

Edelbrock's 600 cfm E-85 carburetor is scheduled to be available in April 2007

In the wake of the past year‚Äôs dramatic rise in petroleum costs, many auto enthusiasts are looking more seriously at alternative fuels.
Much of this interest is in the name of cheaper operating costs and, sometimes, cleaner emissions, but what if it could also increase performance?
Currently available at select fueling stations across the country, E-85 is a blend of 85 percent ethanol and 15 percent unleaded gasoline.
The motivation behind its development was to move further toward using renewable energy sources, but as a bonus, performance fans have realized that ethanol has a much higher octane rating than today‚Äôs gasoline; even as an E-85 blend, it manages a 105 rating.
For hot rodders, that means high-compression can once again be returned to street engine combinations To meet the needs of those interested in building engines to take advantage of E-85, Edelbrock is releasing a new E-85 Series of its four-barrel carburetor.
The E-85 version is rated at 600 cfm and comes calibrated for the alternative fuel.
The special application comes with a hard, anodized finish and powder-coated throttle linkage, plus a complete listing of all the other parts needed for a conversion.
The carb will be available in April 2007 under part number 1414.
Check www.edelbrock.com for more information.

By Terry McGean
http://www.hemmings.com/newsletter/newsletter.html?volume=2&issue=26&id=825&refer=new s&emlid=143560#825

Discussion Points
If a person builds a high compression AMC motor, use one of these E85 carbs or EFI, wouldn't it run as well on E85 as a low compression motor would on gasoline?
Get the same performance? fuel economy?
How high would the compression needs to be? 10:1? 10.5:1? 11:1?
What are the ratios of typical high compression pistons that can be purchased off the shelf?
Would a high compression motor require a different cam than a low compression motor?

Goose

I would think with the correct jetting/carb settings you could approach the same power levels.. What I am curious about is what are they doing to lubricate the top end?? I would think with that much alchohol in the fuel you would have to take some additive steps or something for the fuel system parts.. although as I sit here thinking about it.. the fuel pump and injectors?? maybe valve faces?? stems get some oil, I dont know..

RAMBLINFSJ

Goose wrote
I would think with the correct jetting/carb settings you could approach the same power levels.. What I am curious about is what are they doing to lubricate the top end?? I would think with that much alchohol in the fuel you would have to take some additive steps or something for the fuel system parts.. although as I sit here thinking about it.. the fuel pump and injectors?? maybe valve faces?? stems get some oil, I dont know..

Good Question.
My greatest concern is the corrosion properties of ethanol. You have the change out the entire fuel system which is a huge inital investment just to run the stuff. But that's fine until the fuel hits the intake and then all the way to the pistons. I know there are valves that can handle ethanol but all that cast iron will be proned to corrosion. The ethanol fuel maybe less corrosive when it's atomized but I don't know. I'd sure like to learn more about running ethanol. Ethanol looks very promissing especially with forced induction because you can turn up the boost and timing without burning holes in pistons.

jeepsr4ever

Good old corn oil...reminds me of those fried chicken commercials with the mom from brady bunch.

jeep_man_401

With the right cam, alum. heads and coated pistons 13 to 1 is the upper limit. All in all you get a boost of around 4% to 6% hp...may burn alittle more fuel, but what the heck! :lo1l: If we ever get the pistons from MC (HA still no rush :t: ) and I get a new garage we'll see. Because I'm going E85 in the sleeper J10 with 13 to 1's.

Blown7

IMHO, Ethanol is the Marvel Mystery Oil of fuel tanks, it costs more to produce than ground oil, it has a uncanny ability to attract and "Hold" water (ask any boat owner why they hate it) And dollar for dollar has no benefits other than to raise corn prices so that my Fruit Loops cereal price is very high. :smile:

76-cj7

Blown7 ........And dollar for dollar has no benefits other than to raise corn prices so that my Fruit Loops cereal price is very high. HAHAHA =D> :?: :?

jeep_man_401

And dollar for dollar has no benefits other than to raise corn prices so that my Fruit Loops cereal price is very high.

OK...nerve strike. 🙁:

Do you really think that E85 has cause the rise in price of your cereal? Because the farmer, which plants corn in the spring buys diesel to plant said corn.

In the spring we have the "driving season", as it is now called on the news, which comes with overly high rise in fuel price.
Said farmer gets reamed in the a$$ buy from the oil companies also. Later that year in the fall (harvest time) fuel prices rise for the "Heating season".

Then we have the truckers that bring your cereal to the store so you can buy it. Fully loaded these guys are lucky to get 10MPG with the newest rig out there. My Dad which drives has gone a MILLION miles WITHOUT a accident many years ago. Now I have now idea how many miles he drives a year but simple math and memory will tell you that years ago diesel was cheaper than gas, price has tripled last I looked. So he is spending a hell of lot more to drive your cereal to the store...someone has to pay.

Bottom line is the oil companies want you to believe E85 is costing us because they are afraid it will later cost them.

Brazil has be free of oil for decade's. Sugar cane. The government PAYS sugar companies to keep them in business. High Fructose Corn Syrup...we drink in in every pop more and more food products...but that hasn't had an effect on corn price until a few cars start running on E85? Come on!! Sugar beets are plowed under around here because they can only process so many. There is so much BS in the statement that E85 is the reason for high (insert word of the day) that I could puke.
We could make fuel from landfill and garbage...but the oil companies aren't researching it because they are making BILLIONS. CEO's are making MILLIONS a year while the guy doing the work makes peanuts.
We burn coal when nuclear is cheaper...but there is so much BS and red tape you can't make a profit from something that heats water for years? WTF?

it has a uncanny ability to attract and "Hold" water (ask any boat owner why they hate it)

In the winter we add Isopropyl Alcohol to take the water out of bad gas. E85 cleans the fuel system, it is only corrosive to things it attacks. Maybe if all that dirt and rust and varnish in that old gas take wasn't there from the 30+years of gas sitting in it was cleaned out E85 wouldn't have anything to atract to it!? :oops: Gasoline is a solvent. Where did vition in your carburetor seat come from? Gas swelled and made rubber seats worthless. As far as the boat owners go when was the last fish story you heard true? Seriously, ask them about to new environmental friendly 4 cycles, I bet they just loved those when they first cam out. People are afraid of change...especially people that will lose money because of it.
Every car out there could run on E85 with a few seal changes. Name a new car without a plastic gas tank? The only thing holding E85 or E100 is the infrastructure and bad designs and RED TAPE.

Sorry but a nerve was struck and I had a few... :razz: :shock:

Oh yeh, Brazil isn't flying thousands of jets and driving thousands of tanks around in the sand to protect its sugar cane is it??? #-o #-o #-o #-o #-o

Goose

you have a few good points there.. they are using the same arguments against soy diesel, they say it costs more to grow than it makes.. etc.. the only advantage the farmers get is they buy "off road diesel" or ruby red.. with out the taxes on it.. saves them about 25 to 45 cents per gallon dependsing on the state.. but they still use a bunch of it so that only helps them a little.. the problem with all of this discussion is the oil companies and the car makers and the rest of the established "power base" have the money to propagate this bull crap through the media.. and they do it with money.. I drive a car that gets 44 mpg avg.. I love my Jeeps bu I cant afford to drive them much anymore. and it is only going to get worse.. /rant off :!:

tufcj

You leave out the fact that right now E-85 is subsidized by the federal government (hence YOU and I via taxes) to the tune of about 51 cents per gallon, to make it a viable option. Nobody would use it if it cost more. Around my area, E-85 is about 30 cents cheaper than regular unleaded (about 2.85 vs. 3.05). Take away that subsidy, and E-85 would be 20 cents per gallon HIGHER than gasoline.

http://i-r-squared.blogspot.com/2006/04/future-of-e85.html

Corn is also one of the poorest producers of ethanol per pound. There are dozens of other crops that produce higher amounts per pound (sugar beets and sugar cane are two).

We passed "peak oil" a few years ago (google it for an explanation). Worldwide oil production from here on will go down, be harder to recover, and be of lesser quality. Combine that with the boom of manufacturing and demand in Asia, and the price of oil will continue to climb. Some analysts are saying $4 a gallon by summer, $5 a gallon by next year.

We need an alternative, but E-85 isn't it.

Bob
tufcj

jeep_man_401

If gas is going to be $4 to $5 a gal...there goes any reason for a subsidy. And perhaps you missed it when I said sugar beets are plowed under here at times.

Corn ethanol isn't the answer and they will be the first to tell you. But it is a start. When oil was first produced into gas did when get all the gas we get now from a barrel of oil today? Heck no. But its a start.
If we didn't try to develop these technologies someone else will. and we'll be buying it from them again.
Certainly electric isn't the answer...yet. But the government is funding millions on that crap also. Whats going to happen when everyone tries to plug in there car to recharge and it's hot out, people have their A/C on in the house? California has rolling blackouts, one hick-up on the power grid and millions lose power for days.
E-85 may or may not be the answer...but something has to be done because the boneheads in Washington aren't doing jack.
Look here :
http://wyden.senate.gov/issues/wyden_oil_report.pdf

Oh and by the way, the new budget that our elected officials passed included hundreds of millions of $$$$'s in tax cuts for the oil industry. Bush was going to veto it unless that was in it. So our lustrous senators then raped us by attaching over 6000 add ons (6 BILLION+) to the bill for everything under the sun...courtesy of you and I via taxes. 🙁:

How can GM produce a 500hp corvette that idles like a any other car drives and starts in all weather but can't seem to get better than 30MPG out of anything other than a small box with wheels?????
GM's E-85 cars and trucks are a joke...they should be making more power and better mileage than they are. But they are to busy trying to put hard drives, LCD monitors into them instead! #-o

We need something done and right now E-85 can help until something better comes along...I'll bet you'll be wishing and hoping that if gas hits $5 this summer or next!

People really need to get informed and do research on their own because so many studies and opinions are out there that is funded by this person or that person it easy to fall into the trap of "it will never work".

Brazil isn't flying thousands of jets and driving thousands of tanks around in the sand to protect its sugar cane is it??? :-|