Another cam ? but this one is for my specific 401 build.

willysworker

I've been reading about motor build ups and discovered picking the right cam is best done by experience and matching it to vehicle specifics. I definitely need some experienced help. Here is the whole story. I have a tired 360 block with a weak cylinder and low oil pressure. It has rebuilt stock 58cc heads, an HEI distributor and an Edelbrock performance package, i.e. 600cfm carb, performer intake, cam, lifters and timing chain set. Also stock exhaust manifolds with 2 1/4" to 3" single exhaust pipe and turbo muffler. All with about 1500 miles. I'd like to swap the above items to a 401 short block that I'm going to have rebuilt. Looks like it will have a .030 overbore with stock 8.5/1 cast pistons. I've been reading the Edelbrock cam isn't the way to go. What cam is going to give me the best broad power ban from say, 1500 to 4500 RPM's? I'm hoping to just change the cam. Related specifics. This motor is for my '55 Willys 4x4 wagon which will be doing some 3500 lb. towing and has a T-18 4 spd. with 6.34 1st., 4.10 gears and 33" tires. I like to crawl around at less than 2000 rpm's site seeing off-road. But still need to tow a small trailer or my CJ3a from time to time to distance states at about 3,000 RPM's and 65 mph.

82Waggy

Engle 5052-H 112LSA 254,254@.006 209,209@.050 488,488Lift 30 Overlap 1000 - 4500rpm A single pattern cam with fast ramps that take advantage of the large AMC lifters. Should help build cylinder pressure on 8.5:cr for better torque and give you a good curve. Also has conservative overlap for use with stock exhaust. I would expect peak torque to occur at 3000-3500rpm but the curve should be relatively flat to past 4000rpm with strong off idle response. Should match up great with your intake, carb, and exhaust.

mika01

Along the same lines, I picked up a 401 yesterday and this thing looks absolutely mint! I am planning on swapping on a set on 291C heads that have been completely rebuilt, ported, polished gasket matched (intake and exhaust) along with my R4B and 650 AVS Edy. I was thinking of putting in a Summit 8600 cam I have lying around and would like your feedback. Since I'm bumping the compression up a bit it should be OK no?

82Waggy

Here we go again. MC, Dusty!!!! LOL! The 8600 seems to have satisfied many a user. Just make sure your gearing and tire size result in a compatible rpm range. Oh, and a free flowing exhaust is probably a must with this one due to its' extended overlap range.

mika01

T18 tranny with granny low, 321 t-case (until it blows up), Dana 60 HD rear with Detroit and 4.10 gears, 35" boggers on bead locks. Also full dual 2.5" exhasut

82Waggy

Here's a calculator that lets you choose various trannies and txfr cases, rear end ratios, tire sizes, etc.

http://www.grimmjeeper.com/gears.html

Figure out what your rpm range is, be honest with yourself about what speeds you actually drive and the resulting rpm range, and see if it falls into the range the cam is designed for. I think you will find that the resulting rpm at 60mph in top gear is generally what should fall smack in the middle of the cams recommended rpm range.

MC and others have direct experience with this cam and can tell you better than I where it pulls well.

willysworker

82Waggy wrote
Engle 5052-H
112LSA
254,254@.006
209,209@.050
488,488Lift
30 Overlap
1000 - 4500rpm

A single pattern cam with fast ramps that take advantage of the large AMC lifters. Should help build cylinder pressure on 8.5:cr for better torque and give you a good curve. Also has conservative overlap for use with stock exhaust. I would expect peak torque to occur at 3000-3500rpm but the curve should be relatively flat to past 4000rpm with strong off idle response. Should match up great with your intake, carb, and exhaust.

thanks for the advice. Have you personal real world experience with this cam?

82Waggy

willysworker wrote
82Waggy wrote
Engle 5052-H
112LSA
254,254@.006
209,209@.050
488,488Lift
30 Overlap
1000 - 4500rpm

A single pattern cam with fast ramps that take advantage of the large AMC lifters. Should help build cylinder pressure on 8.5:cr for better torque and give you a good curve. Also has conservative overlap for use with stock exhaust. I would expect peak torque to occur at 3000-3500rpm but the curve should be relatively flat to past 4000rpm with strong off idle response. Should match up great with your intake, carb, and exhaust.

thanks for the advice. Have you personal real world experience with this cam?

Not specifically. I do have considerable experience with cams in general as they are applied to various compression ratios and gearing. I have been leaning towards Engle cams lately as they have grinds specifically designed to take advantage of the large AMC lifter, whereas many others are simply applying chevy grinds to an AMC cam core.

I recommended that one to you because it will help build torque in a stock CR engine by closing the intake valve a little earlier, and won't suffer too much from intake dilution during the int/exh valve overlap period in your rpm range when using a stock exhaust system. It is intended to make power in the rpm range you described. I doubt you could do much better but might bias some characteristics a bit one way or the other (but that would really be splitting hairs).

willysworker

82Waggy wrote
willysworker wrote
82Waggy wrote
Engle 5052-H
112LSA
254,254@.006
209,209@.050
488,488Lift
30 Overlap
1000 - 4500rpm

A single pattern cam with fast ramps that take advantage of the large AMC lifters. Should help build cylinder pressure on 8.5:cr for better torque and give you a good curve. Also has conservative overlap for use with stock exhaust. I would expect peak torque to occur at 3000-3500rpm but the curve should be relatively flat to past 4000rpm with strong off idle response. Should match up great with your intake, carb, and exhaust.

thanks for the advice. Have you personal real world experience with this cam?

Not specifically. I do have considerable experience with cams in general as they are applied to various compression ratios and gearing. I have been leaning towards Engle cams lately as they have grinds specifically designed to take advantage of the large AMC lifter, whereas many others are simply applying chevy grinds to an AMC cam core.

I recommended that one to you because it will help build torque in a stock CR engine by closing the intake valve a little earlier, and won't suffer too much from intake dilution during the int/exh valve overlap period in your rpm range when using a stock exhaust system. It is intended to make power in the rpm range you described. I doubt you could do much better but might bias some characteristics a bit one way or the other (but that would really be splitting hairs).

You write cam speak very convincingly Sir, I just wish you or someone had some seat time or better yet a dyno print out to back up the theory part of all this. Where is it you've gotten your considerable experience if you don't mind me asking. It's very interesting to find the differing opinions between you and jeeps4ever. I really have to take note of his stated 100 AMC motor builds, of which 25 were for personal use. It's from the mild 360 build options thread you and he responded too. It seems it all comes down to your, should match up great verses jeeps4ever's Summit 8600, does work well. However, I'm not convinced either way yet. An open mind is a frustrating thing at times. thanks for you posting.

82Waggy

Thanks. Built my share of motors back in the day. I suppose my advice is worth no more than you paid for it - take it or leave it. 360's and 401's won't react equally to the same cam, and no one cam is appropriate for each gear set. PS: Since you want to see a Dyno sheet, check out donwags 401 build, in the general chat section I think. He used a Comp XE256 cam that MC does not like, yet it makes over 400ft lbs from 2000-4400 rpm. So I guess there are those that like imperical evidence and others that like seat of the pants experience. Pays your nickle and takes your chances.

mika01

willysworker wrote
You write cam speak very convincingly Sir, I just wish you or someone had some seat time or better yet a dyno print out to back up the theory part of all this. Where is it you've gotten your considerable experience if you don't mind me asking. It's very interesting to find the differing opinions between you and jeeps4ever. I really have to take note of his stated 100 AMC motor builds, of which 25 were for personal use. It's from the mild 360 build options thread you and he responded too. It seems it all comes down to your, should match up great verses jeeps4ever's Summit 8600, does work well. However, I'm not convinced either way yet. An open mind is a frustrating thing at times. thanks for you posting.

I couldn‚Äôt have put it as eloquently as you but X2

jeepsr4ever

Well what feels comfortable to you guys is what it really boils down to. I have enough knowledge of camshafts as 82 does to get you right where you need to be but considerations must be taken for carb type, intake, gears, vehicle weight, compression, tires...ect ...ect. One guys could be happy with a duration of 209 because he is leaning it all under 3000rpm. Others like to rod a little with a 224 duration which can work well with a performer intake a a vaccum secondary 600cfm edelbrock carb. With enough knowledge of the moving parts and power requirements I believe me and 82 would have the same cam specs :idea:

82Waggy

mika01 wrote
I couldn‚Äôt have put it as eloquently as you but X2

Hey look guys, I understand your frustration. Coming on to these boards looking for advice usually leads to all kinds of varying responses. If you can pick some wheat from all the chaff you are doing good.

My background is aero engineering. My engine building experience is not nearly as extensive as MC's or some others on here, but I have built several motors of my own to include 351c'c, BBC, couple SBC's, P455, have played with various set ups on a few of those, and have worked with many other types of my friends motors. I'm currently building two AMC's for myself and used to work in a 4wheel drive shop doing engine swaps and mods on Jeeps back in high school 30 years ago (my past with Jeeps is why I have come back to it now). I know what has worked for me and others and I have done considerable research on the subject, so I don't think my experience is worthless nor do I think you will find that I have referenced anything contradictory to modern cam dynamics.

OK?

Thinking seriously of using that little green emoticon :smile:

82Waggy

jeepsr4ever wrote
With enough knowledge of the moving parts and power requirements I believe me and 82 would have the same cam specs :idea:

Yup.

Pretty tough to provide anything but general advice. If you want to squeek that last 30ftlbs your gonna have to do a little more homework.

"Hello, engine room, where's my drink!" :razz:

mika01

OK this might be a silly question, but from looking at some specs of the stock 401 cam on another board, is there really a big difference between it and the Summit 8600?

willysworker

jeepsr4ever wrote
Well what feels comfortable to you guys is what it really boils down to. I have enough knowledge of camshafts as 82 does to get you right where you need to be but considerations must be taken for carb type, intake, gears, vehicle weight, compression, tires...ect ...ect. One guys could be happy with a duration of 209 because he is leaning it all under 3000rpm. Others like to rod a little with a 224 duration which can work well with a performer intake a a vaccum secondary 600cfm edelbrock carb.

With enough knowledge of the moving parts and power requirements I believe me and 82 would have the same cam specs :idea:

I can sure tell you more about my needs and what I'm running for parts. What should I add to the list above? If you have the time and can help me get to that in-between you and he cam spec. Awesome. Or is it that simple, that I can just look for a cam spec'd between the Engle and Summit.

82Waggy

mika01 wrote
OK this might be a silly question, but from looking at some specs of the stock 401 cam on another board, is there really a big difference between it and the Summit 8600?

yup

Blown7

Thats why I stay out of cam advisory threads, way too much variables with different combinations to give any great advice. Even the same cam timed differently with changes of induction will give different results. You just gotta learn for yourself. although I do like the numbers of the Engle cam :wink: Jeff

82Waggy

I'll go ahead and go out on a limb and tell you what I think the difference would be between the two cams based upon your build and set up as you have described it. I believe the Engle will build more peak torque and do so around 3000rpm, give or take a few hundred. I beleive the summit will build less overall peak torque, the peak torque it does build will be around 3500-4000rpm, and low end will be considerably less than that of the Engle. The Engle will probably start to fall off at around 4000rpm. If you were to bump static compression up a bit, you could retain the bottom end that woud otherwise be lost with the Summit, and, in that case I would not recommend the Engle due to the likelyhood of detonation under load coming into the picture due to high cylinder pressure with pump gas. I might still choose a different grind than the 8600 if higher compression was available, however. Now that is all relative and may be splitting hairs. Both are better than stock for building cylinder pressure.

willysworker

82Waggy wrote
mika01 wrote
I couldn‚Äôt have put it as eloquently as you but X2

Hey look guys, I understand your frustration. Coming on to these boards looking for advice usually leads to all kinds of varying responses. If you can pick some wheat from all the chaff you are doing good.

My background is aero engineering. My engine building experience is not nearly as extensive as MC's or some others on here, but I have built several motors of my own to include 351c'c, BBC, couple SBC's, P455, have played with various set ups on a few of those, and have worked with many other types of my friends motors. I'm currently building two AMC's for myself and used to work in a 4wheel drive shop doing engine swaps and mods on Jeeps back in high school 30 years ago (my past with Jeeps is why I have come back to it now). I know what has worked for me and others and I have done considerable research on the subject, so I don't think my experience is worthless nor do I think you will find that I have referenced anything contradictory to modern cam dynamics.

OK?

Thinking seriously of using that little green emoticon :smile:

sorry, waggy didn't mean to imply your input was of less value than seat of the pants impressions. Just that the 8600 group does have a bigger voice. Really nothing personal, more about numbers of people, an experiences with AMC.
But if the two cams are really only a few HP and foot pounds apart then I have another value to weigh in. I have just found info about some manufacturing problems the 8600 might have, lobes flatting in 5,000 miles or less. That's a deal breaker, why would I even consider such a cam. Engle's cam is twice the price ($160) but maybe well worth it. I already spent $85 buck on the Edelbrock junk. Summit 8600 doesn't sound like what I want in my motor. Funny quality wasn't mentioned before. So thanks 82 waggy, I think you have shone me a winner with this cam. I've emailed Engle to get their final input. By the way, know of a cheaper place to get this cam?