mild 360 build opinions

Dusty

thats what im sayin man its like the motor that should have never worked and it embarasses the rest of us every fricken time. :(: too bad you arent out in sacramento, theres an open invitation if you ever want to ride in it. I laugh too because the story of that cam is one that i laugh about. when first researching 401s and before i had found bulltear... back in the 1990's i ended up on the phone with Don Johanson the son of Howard johanson of howards cams and he suggested trying this cam in my motor at the time which was going to be 9.5:1 but instead i ended up going with a different cam and this one got filed

82Waggy

Dusty wrote
too bad you arent out in sacramento, theres an open invitation if you ever want to ride in it.

That would be a blast!

Then I could say I survived the one that wasn't sposed to work.

Same invitation goes to you, if ever your in Texas.

Dusty

82Waggy wrote
You also be runnin some pretty stout compression there Dusty, (helps retain bottom end torque when running longer cams).

Comp catalog says 110lsa for the 260h, but that would not be the first time I have found errors like that.

I'm probably going to try this cam first in my 9:1cr 401 with 3.31 or 3.54 gears on 31" tires.

Engle 5054-H
112lsa
260,260adv
214,214@050
501,501Lift
36deg Overlap
1200 - 5200rpm

I think this will be a really nice setup. my 3.54's with 31's were a nice combo

82Waggy

Dusty wrote
I think this will be a really nice setup. my 3.54's with 31's were a nice combo

Thanks, I hope so.

I just posted my 401 machining and parts list in a new thread if anyones interested - may help others organize their engine projects..

Dusty

Im going to repost... copy this and slide it in, food for thought on some of the combos and how they seemed to work 360-270h 9.2:1 ran good 360- 258EX 9.0:1 ran good 401 - Crower 284hdp? 512/525 lift 112 lobe 9.8:1 r4B combo ran great, towed was lots of fun 401- 8601 9:1 51cc heads on 8.5:1 pistons with the 8601 / performer - good. fun with a t-18 401 - howards .479 222dur@.050 292dur 114 lobe sep- 8.5:1 torker (dotn ask) and 600 - good 401 - Howards .479 cam - 10.2:1 and FI - so so think it may have been the fuel injection hindering performance 401 - 512 lift 274 dur 226@.050 112 lobe sep 10.2:1 with performer and 750 pretty fun mild idle great through to 5000/ 5500 4.56's with 35's 401 - 9.6:1 270H Air gap and 770 so-so with a 670 and performer the same motor picked right up works great as a tower and mileage getter 3.92's on 33's 390 - 10:1 R4B -700 - 276HDP Crower- OK performance done too soon rpm/power wise left a little to be desired on the mid upper and top end. in a 72 Wagoneer with T18 4.10s 32's 401 - 9.8:1 EX262h Comp - airgap and 750 pretty nice combo was snappier off the line with a performer but the airgap opened up mid and tops. tows pretty good in a J20 they said it was a 110 lobe sep but when it arrived the card said 112 360 - 10:1 343 pistons - EP20HYD Engle - Performer/700. Nice combo compression could have been a little lower but overall liked this combo it did really well with a TF727 and 3.92's in a J10. Had no problem on pump gas but towing it liked premium from time to time. theres a few others in there Oh yeah current cherokee is a 401 9.8:1 witht he 260h in it and 354 gears on 31's (&32's) and a TH400 performer and 750 edelbrock tows great but she is done at 4000 rpm so kicking down to passing gear and trying to extract a few more rpms out of the motor with a trailer is not an option just staying in direct gear does pretty good on most hills loaded i know its always been weird, the power does always seem to be there i can say the 280h in a 360 with a torquer and 800 was Way too much lol on 9.2:1. the PAW cam was close to the 270h in profile not the 8601. On a recent 401 built i liked that 262EX from comp i think it would be pushing it for a low compression 360 but then again maybe not it might be a little large but may offer an interesting package. several friends run the 8601 and 8600 and both of which have seemed to work well in the right applications the 8601 in a 401 with higher compression and 8600 in a lower compression 401's and in 360's the 8600 has proved to be nice when coupled to a 9:1 or 8.8:1 a performer and 600 or so carb. but i have not recently built anything personally that i can comment on, just what others have done and how it has performed

82Waggy

So Dusty, Just to summarize, would you say that in general your impressions were based upon looking for best towing power in the 3000 - 5000 rpm range? Just my general observations on gearing versus cam used and your impressions suggest that a little more appropriate matching of gear ratios and probably all of those cams would have felt pretty good. You've got some pretty big gears in that list so I suspect you never felt lacking for bottom end - also assume you had to shift pretty fast through first and second in some of those setups! PS: Stop confusing everybody LOL! #-o

Dusty

correct. which is where your philosophies and proper matching of gears to hp comments and data play a huge role. though i like to think the world over 5k is relevent, reality is it is not. though i do like b uilding a motor that functions up to 5500 or redlines at 6k thats about the max of my operating range i still do most my driving between 2000-3000rpm at 1/4 to 1/2 throttle .....WOT with full load is the only time the engine operates outside of that range. Like a hard hill climb but even then most the time im right at or in the 3500 rpm range singing right along 111!!! #-o I think best towing power is between 2500-5000 with the peak at in the area of 3500-4000 but still carrying the torque at or above 400 ft/lbs to 5k is important and having 400 ft/lbs from 2000 rpm up is essential too. I know i just went against everything else i was thinking and typing. Does that make any sense. probably not. shoot i'll get back to this thought maybe i can explain myself in different words in amoment. LOL

82Waggy

Dusty wrote
I know i just went against everything else i was thinking and typing.

Does that make any sense. probably not. shoot i'll get back to this thought maybe i can explain myself in different words in a moment. LOL

Makes all the sense in the world.

:!:

Dusty

82Waggy wrote
So Dusty,

PS: Stop confusing everybody LOL! #-o

:wink:
i know what im trying to get at but sometimes communicating it doesnt come out the right way. i think the list of cams/ cabs and engine combos speaks best for my intentions and what has worked for me and what i liked and how they worked.
I just like emphisise not cutting these motors off at the knees and i feel like 4k-4500 redline is doing just that and not allowing them to take full advantage of how well they can perform.

Yes i do get confusing some times. :idea: and i know it kinda like a pin ball sometimes

we'll meet someday and we should all have a bulltear gathering ---- in colorado so that its about middle for everyone and still have a jeep trip.

82Waggy

Dusty wrote
82Waggy wrote
So Dusty,

PS: Stop confusing everybody LOL! #-o

:wink:
i know what im trying to get at but sometimes communicating it doesnt come out the right way. i think the list of cams/ cabs and engine combos speaks best for my intentions and what has worked for me and what i liked and how they worked.
I just like emphisise not cutting these motors off at the knees and i feel like 4k-4500 redline is doing just that and not allowing them to take full advantage of how well they can perform.

Yes i do get confusing some times. :idea: and i know it kinda like a pin ball sometimes

we'll meet someday and we should all have a bulltear gathering ---- in colorado so that its about middle for everyone and still have a jeep trip.

I understand completely. I meant confusing everybody with all those wacky motors LOL.

I think everybody starts jumping up and down everytime somebody comes on wanting a cam recommendation without thinking about it being for a stock compression rebuild. I know for sure some of the longer cams you have used would kill the bottom end torque of a stocker on factory gears. Most Waggy's came with 2.73's for goodness sake!

So I always try to back people down to more realistic rpm ranges until they realize that to do a rebuild right new pistons are usually required, so you might as well bump compression a bit if you can. If new gears are in order too than I don't mind talking about more cam.

I once made the mistake of overcamming an SBC I had swapped into a Toy FJ40. I also stuck a Torker and a 700 dbl pumper on at the same time. Bottom end went by by and had less peak power than before (600vac sec and corvette dual plane originally). No throttle response, nuthin. Never got a chance to put the smaller carb back on or try anything else before a kid thought it sounded so cool it just had to be fast and bought it off me.

Look forward to a Jeep trip.

Anyway, I am sure between you and I we have completely confused the original poster of this thread LOL.

Glad to be of service!

:?:

204wagoneer

The original poster of this thread is THRILLED to get so much good advise. Its nice to have people that are willing to chat without a bunch of BS drama. Its all for a silly little ol jeep, well not so little I guess. anyway, I'll be starting in on this build in about a month. I see a smooth, reliable 300 ish hp 360 gleaming on the horizon. here's to 200 k more miles of Jeep Lovin............ :lo1l: :t: :lo1l:

82Waggy

204wagoneer wrote
The original poster of this thread is THRILLED to get so much good advise.

Its nice to have people that are willing to chat without a bunch of BS drama. Its all for a silly little ol jeep, well not so little I guess.

anyway, I'll be starting in on this build in about a month. I see a smooth, reliable 300 ish hp 360 gleaming on the horizon.

here's to 200 k more miles of Jeep Lovin............

:lo1l: :t: :lo1l:

It's always fun. Cam questions always spur debate.

One nice thing about cams, if you don't like the results, try a different one. I'm sure Dusty always has a spare laying around LOL!

Kind of a pain to pull timing covers but the intakes and valve covers come off easy on an AMC. Once you have established a baseline for your setup and gain an understanding of the effects of different cam specs, choosing the second one is usually easier.

1980_Cj7

Yeah, the worstest part is the timing cover with all the accessories with all their different length bolts and spacers and what have you. Don't know about the intake coming off so easily either. We could have picked up our engine by the intake WITHOUT any of the bolts in it, when we had to pull it. Guess we had it sealed well, ha, ha.

I'm gonna throw our cam specs out one more time for discussion. From what I've been reading, sounds like it should be reasonable. Hard to tell from our first rebuild with the timing gear having been installed wrong and the timing all screwed up though.

Clevite part number 229-1972.
Advertised duration: 294
.050 duration: 218/218
Lift: .488/.488
Lobe C/L: 110
Intake lobe center: 105
Exhaust lobe center: 115
Intake open @ .050: 4 BTC
Intake close @ .050: 34 ABC
Exhaust open @ .050: 44 BBC
Exhaust close @ .050: 6 BTC

One thing that has me confused though is in that great cam article that 82Waggy put me on to a while back...

http://www.compcams.com/Community/Articles/
(Scroll down to the article titled "Be The Camshaft Expert")...

they say LCA is the most critical thing in chosing a cam, and show how you calculate what it should be by using engine displacement and intake valve size and a graph they have. According to that, our .040 over 401 should have an LCA of 104 degrees.

82Waggy

1980_Cj7 wrote
One thing that has me confused though is in that great cam article that someone put me on to a while back, they say LCA is the most critical thing in chosing a cam, and show how you calculate what it should be by using engine displacement and intake valve size and a graph they have. According to that, our .040 over 401 should have an LCA of 104 degrees.

Yup. Keep in mind they were talking about obtaining max peak output, not necessarily a wide torque curve in the lower rpm ranges. Remember also that they were relating this to the intake/exhaust valve overlap phase as the key to making peak power and stated that you only wanted a lot of it if your exhaust system sucked, literally - any restriction/backpressure and you were sunk, due to intake dilution. Short LSA = increased overlap. Might also note that lower duration with higher lift made more total power, and did so at a lower rpm range.

1980_Cj7

Well, after looking up that old post, after only 6 edits, ha, ha, I finally managed to give credit to 82Waggy for originally posting the link to that cam article, and actually reposted the link.

I swear, the more I read about cams, the more confused I get.

82Waggy

1980_Cj7 wrote
I swear, the more I read about cams, the more confused I get.

Understand. It was my own frustration with seat of the pants recommendations many years ago that lead me to study this stuff for myself. Unfortunately there is a lot of co-mingling of terms (LCA vs LSA for example) and advertising hype that adds to the confusion. Bigger is not always better.

Just use the cam you have to establish a baseline, see if you can determine at what rpm it pulls well for your setup. If you are not satisfied with it, try to apply what you have learned to make a decision on an alternative cam - make changes in small steps.

Hell, I don't expect to hit my choice for a cam dead on the first time either.

1980_Cj7

The other thing we're going to do, is not count on the machine shop this time, even though this one is supposed to be really good. When we get the engine back, it won't have the timing cover on yet, so I'm planning on taking it down to Fuzz's while it's still in the back of the truck, and degree the cam and double check it for ourselves. He's got all the tools to do it. (We just didn't tell Fuzz yet, ha, ha, so don't let it slip. We're gonna surprise him some night that Mrs. Fuzz is having something good for supper!) We have all kinds of adjustability with the Rollmaster timing set. I have a pretty good idea of what changing the intake events does, but not such a good feel for what changes to the exhaust events that have to follow along will do. But...I don't want to be hyjacking the thread here.

« Previous Page