Final days of the 401 on the dyno

Goose

Looks to me like an Intentional viewport...Bet that would be some good video.. Holesaw anyone?

Blown7

ironman_gq wrote
when that thing chewed through how much coolant ended up in the motor and how long was it therebefore you noticed. :shock:

About a minute after the water pump stopped turning.

Jeff

Blown7

Ok getting ready to check oil flow thru the gear

Jeff

1980_Cj7

Jeff, do you have the Rollmaster with the Torrington bearing or the one without the bearing? I was thinking again last night. Sometimes I think I'm way over-thinking this stuff, but I'm paranoid after our experience with the first rebuild. I was looking at the path from the oil hole in the front of the cam. Fuzz has the Rollmaster without the bearing, and posted a pic here a while back showing the recess that runs the whole way around the timing gear to give the oil a path from the cam hole to the groove running thru the gear along the cam. Our Rollmaster has the bearing, and although there is a recess, it sure doesn't look very deep.

1980_Cj7

1980_Cj7 wrote
Jeff, do you have the Rollmaster with the Torrington bearing or the one without the bearing?

I was thinking again last night. Sometimes I think I'm way over-thinking this stuff, but I'm paranoid after our experience with the first rebuild. I was looking at the path from the oil hole in the front of the cam.

Fuzz has the Rollmaster without the bearing, and posted a pic here a while back showing the recess that runs the whole way around the timing gear to give the oil a path from the cam hole to the groove running thru the gear along the cam. Our Rollmaster has the bearing, and although there is a recess, it sure doesn't look very deep.

Nevermind Jeff. I went back and reread that old Rollmaster thread, and saw that you did state you don't have the bearing. I also see Fuzz posted pics of gears both w/ and w/o the bearing and the oil recess looks the same on both.

Now, get some video of the oil flying on yours. Crank up that...drill. In fact, give the drill a shot of that NOS.

etjeep

Jeff,
I am a newbiew here, this is awesome tech! Thanks for sharing! I have been lurking, enjoying your build, =D> and I did not think I had anything to contribute, but wanted to through this out since I have not seen any mention of it with your (lack of) lube at the dizzy gear. This is something I added to my 401. When I did the oiling modification to the galley on my 401, I also tapped the timing cover case and added the oil line to the timing chain/dizzy gear externally. Don't have any performance results to report yet, but I am wondering if you considered this in removing material by making the slots bigger on the cam gear Here is a pic in the link http://rides.webshots.com/photo/1466010537069564115eWFeQY . Thats just a coat hanger next to the tube so I could get my bends correct.

My feeling, I could be wrong, it can't hurt to bath that chain and gear in oil! :lo1l:

Mudrat

etjeep, wht size line are you looking to run and from where?

etjeep

Which line? The line to the timing cover was small. IIRC 1/8", its the copper line in my linked pic above. I don't think you need much to keep it lubed plus you want to keep that line small so you don't starve the rest of the system.

etjeep

Mudrat, My pic did not upload, you need to go to the link. It is supplied from the oil pressure sending unit, just tee off. Eric

Blown7

Well after 3 hours of uploading about 5 minutes of oiling videos here goes. Lube wasn't my problem. I realize now that if all the oiling paths are correct the cam gear can flow copius amounts of oil.

Specicifications;

Engine was rotated and stopped at 50 degrees BTDC.
Oil viscosity, Valvoline 20-50 Racing oil.
Used the original oil filter adapter with the bypass.
Modified a 1515 NAPA Gold filter.
Plunger for oil pressure was stuck initally,( I just jammed in a plunger I had laying around. I didn't care for maintaining a constant pressure, just to see the flow and document it with the fuel pressure gage.
The best I could measure the amount of torque required to turn the shaft at 15 PSI was 32 in/lbs of torque required.
( before the last video, I couldn't document it as I had to do this with both hands. No helper. )

First vid just getting started. The oil still has water in it, thats why it's milky but actually gives a good contrast to see.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIPw9NjKdfM

Second vid, my drill motor chuck kept on loosing up

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xP38DCBgUo

Third vid, drill motor was starting to heat up and I eventually burned it out

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8a4gk78U60

Forth vid I used my big 20 year old Rockwell drill, its shakey but I had to hold the big drill in one hand and the camera in the other.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42ZFJrA19IQ

Conclusions

If all the oil paths are aligned you need no additional oiling mods.
The torque reqired initally is significant, the higher the pressure the harder to turn as evidenced by the counterclockwise rotation on releasing the drill at higher pressures above 70 PSI.
More observations folks?

jeepsr4ever

Jeff we did the window before and that is exactly what is looks like :idea:

Blown7

MC your my hero!
Now I see why no other oiling mods are required.

Here's how I determined the torque required to turn.

Jeff

etjeep

Damn I wish I saw your flow test before my mod!

82Waggy

More oil. Gotta get more oil to everything!!! Stock oiling system bites. Must modify! Squirt more oil on EVERYTHING! :razz:

jeepsr4ever

Jeff you should see the amount of inch lbs it takes with a 534 or a 626 with a good filter. You will also find a 5inch lb drop using the HRC gears. :wink: I have a shit ton of data compiled on the AMC V8, probly enough to write a set of encyclopedias. :idea:

Blown7

jeepsr4ever wrote
Jeff you should see the amount of inch lbs it takes with a 534 or a 626 with a good filter. You will also find a 5inch lb drop using the HRC gears. :wink: I have a shit ton of data compiled on the AMC V8, probly enough to write a set of encyclopedias. :idea:

MC do you have some of those numbers? And more importantly what are the cam drive gear and the dizzy gear rated for before failure?
Would a Bronze dizzy gear be better?
And will the HRC gears work in the new billet cover?

Jeff

1980_Cj7

I'm interested in hearing about these gears too. I'm ready to order another set. Was going to order last night in fact, but got too busy. Maybe it's good I didn't now.

jeepsr4ever

Bronze distributor gears for AMC V8s are probly one of the biggest misunderstood parts ever sold for this motor. Bronze gears were invented to use in billet and custom ground camshafts that have a different hardness (harder) than most off the shelf cams. Bronze gears were originally designed for Chevy motors where the price of the distributor gear was a hell of alot cheaper than the price of the cam (on Chevy motors the camshaft gear in an integral part of the camshaft). In fact the only benefit that bronze has over any other AMC distributor gear is that it can be used with any cam gear and it will find its pattern quick and repetetively even if you dont match up the teeth (not that you need to). Some racers blindly throw a bronze gear into their AMC thinking thats the better solution. They are right that the bronze gear will desinegrate without taking the cam gear out but the bronze gears are very soft. Bronze is a soft alloy that machines like butter and has a great integrity to it. What racers and high revvers should be usinng is a set of hardened steel gears. When you hit those high RPMs the load on the distributor gear is often over 150in lbs and that puts alot of stress on the teeth. You need a fast moving lubricant with a decent viscosity or you will shear the oil film layer quickly and start to eat away at your gear. Chances are Jeff you had a couple of things going on. The first was camshaft walk and the second was you were trying to use a 20w50 on a motor that wasnt broken in and past that pony stage. I say pony because that is what we call the stage where you are over 5000miles (on a conventional car) or 50hrs on a race motor. the first 10 mns of break in is where you will find most of the setting in and wear patterns inside the engine. This is the most crucial time and will set the pace for service life. Breaking your camshaft in properly also sets the bearing wear to the journals for the crank, rods, cam and sets the pushrods and rockers to the prospective duties. The distributor gear and camshaft gear also need to be broken in right. Usually this means using a little cam lube or grease to help them set a good pattern right off the bat. Instead of that we soak them in a oil called vactra2 or DTE-14 they are great high zinc oils with a neutral PH (gears ship out that way). The fastest cam and distributor wear you will find is when you accelerate quickly. Using a very heavy oil has its disadvantages when it comes to flow out the front of the gear however their is a happy medium for higher revving engines and that was found about 5 years ago and the weight was 15w40. :wink:

1980_Cj7

What are the HRC gears?

jeepsr4ever

Look in the oiling section or the E-store you will see them.

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