Final days of the 401 on the dyno

jeepsr4ever

Well is depends on where he put his gauge. With both sides being fed from a single source and the passenger side feeding the cam then the mains the last main bearings are always the ones that suffer. AMC blocks only feed the cam and mains from the passenger side and with such nice big bearings you can roach a set pretty quick. I say "the motor burps" :idea:

Mudrat

jeepsr4ever

GEEZ!!!! I didnt even notice that the dual filter sends to one filter then to the next!! What a horrible design :?: :?: :?: :(: :(: :(: I wonder what the rate is of the spring in the bypass. The dual filter assemblies we sell dont have a oil filter bypass because they dont need one. They feature a dual in and out and feed both filters at the same time :t: Those are the best of the best.

Goose

I just want to thank you for putting in all this info.. you have spent the money abd done the time.. and this is great info!! (plus it's real world verifiable) did I read right? did you get 900 horse on the bottle?.. :shock: :shock: :? I definately want video of that ride

Blown7

Goose wrote
I just want to thank you for putting in all this info.. you have spent the money abd done the time.. and this is great info!!
(plus it's real world verifiable) did I read right? did you get 900 horse on the bottle?.. :shock: :shock: :? I definately want video of that ride

909 Ft lbs torque. 867 HP
Torque outran the horsepower.

Jeff

Blown7

82Waggy wrote
jeepsr4ever wrote
82Waggy wrote
Sorry Blown7, but until you run it without the valley line and measure the same drop on the right side I won't be convinced.

Sounds to me like you have a restriction on the left side to me.

Yep its called cam bearings

How do cam bearings interfere with the flow down the left hand (drivers side) lifter gallery? For that matter, they cannot be interfering with flow down the right side gallery either.

I drilled and tapped both rear oil galley plugs at the flywheel side to get a reading at the end of the runs at the dead end. Tough to get a 1/16" line between the flywheel and the block.
The reference point was the convential oil pressure port right side front.
I could see where the idea came for the "U" loop at the back of the block some people have used in the past.
I regard the pressure drop (actually it was closer to 8 PSIG) to the extra length of traveling over the top, the 90 degree turn and then down the length of the block. (Or a lifter or two are bleeding off a little more. No big deal to me. Just interesting.
The cam bearings I used where not redrilled with a smaller hole and reindexed just installed right out of the box.
With the two line sump pickup I got plenty of volume and the system loaded with 12 quarts of oil I don't think I'll run out.

Jeff

Blown7

When I get the engine home I'll take more pics. I really want to show MC the bootyfab pressure adjustment port I made on the 534. It really helped to adjust the pressure accurately at idle. Thats one of the reasons one of the filters blew, initally Joe blipped the throttle before I could adjust it properly and we had a pressure spike right off the end of my 100 lb max pressure gages. Jeff

Blown7

HEY MC!!!
Speaking of dual oil filter housings, how much would you charge me to make this style in a parallel flow from flat stock? With a big Bulltear logo engraving on the top??? Also gonna need a custom oil filler cap with Blown 401 on it.

Jeff

1980_Cj7

Jeff, so what kind of numbers did you get with the nitrous? Or did you already post them and I'm missing them somewhere?

Blown7

1980_Cj7 wrote
Jeff, so what kind of numbers did you get with the nitrous? Or did you already post them and I'm missing them somewhere?

909 Ft lbs torque. 867 HP
Torque outran the horsepower.

82Waggy

Blown7 wrote
I drilled and tapped both rear oil galley plugs at the flywheel side to get a reading at the end of the runs at the dead end. Tough to get a 1/16" line between the flywheel and the block.
The reference point was the convential oil pressure port right side front.
I could see where the idea came for the "U" loop at the back of the block some people have used in the past.
I regard the pressure drop (actually it was closer to 8 PSIG) to the extra length of traveling over the top, the 90 degree turn and then down the length of the block. (Or a lifter or two are bleeding off a little more. No big deal to me. Just interesting.
The cam bearings I used where not redrilled with a smaller hole and reindexed just installed right out of the box.
With the two line sump pickup I got plenty of volume and the system loaded with 12 quarts of oil I don't think I'll run out.

Jeff

How do you account for those that found no measurable drop in pressure from one end of the galley to the other, an excessive flowing lifter? I would have thought this would result in a system wide pressure drop, but if you think there is extra restriction "flowing over the top" to the left side then maybe this in concert with an excessive flowing lifter would account for it. Did you use a restricter plug in the left side galley?

The only way to know for sure if the bypass line is working would be to measure the right side galley at both ends with and without the line.

Hey Mudrat, pass the popcorn! :razz:

PS: Jeff, are you sure you did not kink the sender line trying to get past the flywheel?

Blown7

Here's a short 2 min vid showing the laptop screen with the engine at fast idle with one of many commentaries by Joe describing the 2 operating parameters of many of the FAST system.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-yB0KRE3ys

BTW there are 16 rows of boxes across the screen and down and it is the tuners job is to make sure ALL the numbers in each box is correct using the Lambda sensor for a guide.

Jeff

Blown7

This was a measurement of the right galley aft (passenger side) to the left galley aft (which showed the lower reading) verses the oil pressure indicating port. A system wide pressure drop if their was one was compersated by my bootyfab oil pressure adjusting screw which was set to maintain a system pressure of 60 PSIG.
If both turns "over the top" is equal to .5 LB pressure drop and then the final 90 degree into the block to the left galley is equal to .25 LB then I would have to assume a 3/4 PSIG reading lower just getting to the left side galley. Not including the pressure drop thru the length of the block. I always likened oil pressure drop to voltage drop in a wire carring a current the length of wire creates a voltage drop due to resistance and length ( just like hydraulic pressure) at the end of the run, same with oil pressure just a lower reading at the left end galley (which is furthest from the oil pump) due to size of galley verses resistance to flow.

The only way to know for sure if the bypass line is working would be to measure the right side galley at both ends with and without the line.

Absolutely in agreement with you there!! Thats why I suggested I'd may install a flowmeter with a one way check valve when I install the engine in the chassis. When we all install the valley oil pass line in the block we all assume the valley line flows oil back to the mains because everyone told us so. As I was playing around with the engine the thought occured to me that the oil could flow either way with the valley line mod (Convential thought is front to back "at the over the top" but it possibly could go the other way, back mains to front if there is a lower pressure "at the over the top" that I myself don't know for sure.) I didn't feel like pulling the blower manifold to disconnect the valley line. When I do the chassis install I have to pull the manifold to weld a crack so I'll have access then.

Jeff

1980_Cj7

Blown7 wrote
1980_Cj7 wrote
Jeff, so what kind of numbers did you get with the nitrous? Or did you already post them and I'm missing them somewhere?

909 Ft lbs torque. 867 HP
Torque outran the horsepower.

Hmmm, I was only 102 HP high with my guess of 1111.

jeepsr4ever

Jeff we plan on making some dual and triple filters that wont filter in series but in parralell. I will let you know. We are moving in another big cnc mill in a couple of months so that will help with new product.

82Waggy

You must have some pretty excessive flow through the lifters combined with a flow path restriction to see that kind of pressure drop from a 60 psi source, or your gauge feed line was kinked. Ken Parkman found no measurable loss at the aft end of either galley during his dyno run with no valley bypass line.

jeepsr4ever

Your right he did but if I remember the specifics he didnt measure it for very long or was it he didnt have extended rpm's. At any rate for their not to be a difference between the front and the back on pressure makes me think the test wasnt completed correctly. You cant have the same pressure on two ends of a hose with holes in between if your feeding from only one side.

Blown7

82Waggy wrote
You must have some pretty excessive flow through the lifters combined with a flow path restriction to see that kind of pressure drop from a 60 psi source, or your gauge feed line was kinked.

Not to shrug off your thoughts or sound sarcastic but I don't know or actually care what the flow is thru the lifters. I carry alot of oil in the sump and system and to see a pressure drop is a good indication the oil is going somewhere, doing its job.

Ken Parkman found no measurable loss at the aft end of either galley during his dyno run with no valley bypass line.

Don't know anything about Ken Parkmans findings,
I'm only reporting mine.

As I've said before it doesn't matter to me a bit if someone does the valley oil line mod or not and I wouldn't recommend it to be done just to do it. ( My findings I wouldn't consider to be conclusive to be the end all to the valley oil line mod discussion.) It just doesn't hurt and I found my oil pressure to be the same and was predictable according to the laws(sic) of hydraulic manifolds. Basically it turns the oil galley into a double ended fed manifold.
(Just as predictable as the manifold on the fuel side of my Nitrous system, that is when the fuel solonoid opened the fuel pressure would drop because the fuel injectors where injecting fuel and it wasn't a closed circut anymore. Fuel pressure dropped by half 6 PSIG to 3 PSIG). And true it is one more thing that can fail due to vibration or fatigue but for me I don't mind having one more thing to check.
The question I would ask myself is "Are all the big name AMC engine builders doing it? I.E. Lewis, Atkins, Booth etc.
And are they doing it? I really don't know.
But if they are they are, they know something I don't or did a lot more experimenting.

Jeff

82Waggy

Guy's, If leakage through the lifters is causing the pressure drop, please explain how running a parallel line to them from the same feed source is going to push more oil to the bearings instead of through the lifters. "You cant have the same pressure on two ends of a hose with holes in between if your feeding from only one side." Sure you can, so long as feed rate exceeds the rate of leakage. What is being suggested here is that the flow rate through the valvetrain is exceeding the feed rate from the pump.

jeepsr4ever

No 82 it is not being suggested it has been proven. The lifters and the cam bearings exceed the pump quickly when your above 5000rpms. This is due to many factors. Calculate the bearing surface areas at a 30% parasitic loss, add in the diameter of the pushrod holes and add in the diameter of the lifters and then you start to see whay the last three main bearings raoch in a AMC V8. You really have to earn this type of knowledge before you can make suggestions off another persons quote and be anywhere close to accurate.

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