AMC poops out at Jeg's PHR Engine Masters Challenge

Holeshot

The Fords come away the big winners!!!

Anybody want to try for 2007???

jeepsr4ever

I didnt see a AMC engine in there

jeepsr4ever

Oh, ok

Team # 31 Kustom Kemp - AMC

Average Torque Average Horsepower
Pull #1 423.2 359.1 Pull #2 419.0 356.1 Pull #3 418.5 356.0
Averages -- 420.2 TQ / 357.1 HP
Total Score = 777.3

Team 31, Kustom Kemps were unable to get their competition engine to the event, but determined to make the show, these guys put up what amounted to a very basic combination, with stock AMC iron cylinder heads. The 421-inch engine, loaded with traditional "old-school" components scored 777.3 points, and managed to produce 448 peak hp. Not a bad output for this kind of combo.

jeepsr4ever

Those are some embarrasing numbers for a engine challenge #-o But great for stock heads :!: Looks like 777 wasnt a lucky number for our guys with the AMC mill

Blown7

Usually Kasse does pretty well. So Matt when is this board gonna build a AMC for the challenge? I think I could fanagle a invite in the future, (got some friends in low places.) Jeff

jeepsr4ever

What and embarrase the others? :?: :? Building AMCs isnt our business but making parts is...so far. We are toying with a shortblock and street/strip head program. I dont know the rules so I cant say how I personally would do but I have built a pretty strong low end. Those that really build AMC race engines dont care for this challenge as they are too busy with their own stuff. BTW Jeff what was the thickness on the top ring land you went with? I am looking at a blower motor build shortly here and I am thinking a .3125 top ring land.

Holeshot

Sure would be good nationwide advertising. You can't hardly buy that kind of advertising, the value would be immense and unmeasurable!!!!

Holeshot

2006 Rules: ENGINE Any normally aspirated, gasoline powered, domestic V-8 passenger car engine produced by Ford, Cadillac, Chevrolet, Chrysler, Pontiac, Oldsmobile or Buick ("domestic OEM") that meets all rules criteria are acceptable. Olds Diesel-based engines are not allowed. Hemi-style cylinder heads mated to a Chevrolet block, or other similar head/block swapping is not allowed. Cleveland-type cylinder heads on a Windsor-type block is allowed. Maximum displacement is maximum of 434.0 cubic inches. Cubic inch is calculated by bore x bore x stroke x 6.2832. Bore is measured at top of cylinder. Bore and stroke are measured to three (3) significant digits, i.e. 0.001. Cubic inches are calculated to one (1) significant digit i.e. 434.0. Note an engine with a calculated cubic inch of 434.1 is considered illegal. Power adders such as superchargers, turbochargers, nitrous oxide, or other such devices, are not allowed. Any method of artificially heating and/or cooling engine fluids, fuel, and/or air is not allowed (not to include thermal or friction coatings). This includes, but is not limited to, heating and/or cooling by mechanical device such as an external cooler or radiator/heat exchanger, pre-heating or cooling of any fluids with an oil heater or fuel heater/cooler, or the addition of a temperature-altering device designed to cool or heat the incoming air charge by mechanical means such as an intercooler, chemical means such as a chemical to cool either the incoming air/fuel charge or intake manifold, or electrical means such as an electric oil heater inside or outside the engine. ENGINE BLOCK Any domestic OEM passenger car or commercially available aftermarket OEM replacement, cast iron, or aluminum engine block is acceptable. Engine block must retain OEM cylinder bore spacing and OEM block angle. Lifter bores must retain OEM angle (+ or -1 degree) and OEM diameter (+ or - .005-inch). Lifter bores may be bushed. Engine blocks must retain OEM passenger car deck height or lower. (Exception; Chevrolet-type aftermarket "tall-deck" blocks with a maximum 10.200-inch deck height are acceptable). Raised cam blocks are not allowed. Any method of artificially increasing the deck height of the engine block (i.e. using spacer plates and/or multiple head gaskets) is not allowed. Head gaskets are limited to a maximum total thickness of .060 of an inch, per cylinder head. The location and number of bolt-holes determine block style and/or type. Block must be equipped with solid engine mounts. "Knock sensors" are acceptable. CRANKSHAFT Any commercially available crankshaft is acceptable. All crankshafts must be equipped with a standard pilot bushing (required for proper connection to the dyno). CYLINDER HEADS Any domestic OEM passenger car or commercially available aftermarket OEM replacement, 2-valve per cylinder, cylinder heads that meet all other rules are acceptable. Raised runner heads that meet all other rules criteria are acceptable. Purpose-built racing heads such as; GM DRCE, Dart Big Chief and other similar racing heads are not allowed. Contestants will be required to inform the rules committee of their cylinder head type for approval no later than July 15, 2006. Multiple spark plugs per cylinder and/or overhead camshafts are not allowed. "Domestic OEM passenger car" and "aftermarket OEM replacement" cylinder heads must retain compatibility with unmodified OEM passenger car intake and exhaust manifolds. Aftermarket cylinder heads that maintain compatibility with OEM passenger car intake and exhaust manifolds are acceptable even if the aftermarket manufacturer has altered the valve angles, valve spacing, and/or valve location from the original OEM design. Valves must retain as-manufactured valve angles (+ or -1 degree), as originally cast. Cylinder head decks may be milled as long as the milling does not affect the valve angle more than the 1-degree variance allowed by the rules. Any valve seat size and/or valve size is acceptable. Any commercially available stainless steel valve is acceptable. Titanium valves and/or springs are not allowed. Unlimited porting, polishing, welding, and/or filling the inside of the intake and/or exhaust ports is acceptable. Modifications to the exterior surfaces of the intake and/or exhaust ports, such as welding and/or adding additional material to increase port size or to alter the port design, is not allowed. The exterior surfaces of the ports, which include the intake manifold and/or exhaust manifold mating flanges, must remain "as-cast" by the manufacturer and cannot be altered in any way. Fastener holes on the intake manifold and/or exhaust manifold mating surfaces must remain as manufactured and cannot be altered in any way. Flange adapters that connect the exhaust ports to the header are not allowed. Aftermarket raised-runner heads (with OEM bolt patterns) equipped with spacer plates on the intake surface in order to properly mate with the intake manifold are acceptable. The spacer plates can be aftermarket or fabricated but they must duplicate the OEM bolt patterns and no fasteners can be added to, removed from, or altered as part of their design. Spacer plates that change the manifold bolt pattern relative to the cylinder head or the intake manifold and/or slotting of intake manifold bolt-holes to attain alignment is not allowed. MOPAR W-2 small block intake and exhaust bolt patterns are allowed. IGNITION Any commercially available ignition system including points, electronic, or capacitive discharge that utilize a single battery-powered distributor and coil are acceptable. Crank triggers and magnetos are not allowed. Independent ignition timing switches or devices of any kind are not allowed. Locked-out distributors are acceptable. Programmable ignition control boxes are permitted. Important Note- Remote computer linking/ hook-up to ignition system is allowed ONLY during the Tuning Period and Warm-Up Period of the competition. Engines designed and produced by a domestic OEM with distributor-less ignition systems or engines that have been modified to accept a distributor are not allowed. Engines must be equipped with a distributor, ignition box, ignition coil, spark plug wires (with suppression shielding) and related ignition wiring designed for easy connection to the dyno. Spark plug wires must be commercially available and their design must remain unmodified. Electrical power will be supplied to the ignition system by a single 12-volt source. CARBURETION Any commercially available, single four-barrel carburetor (including Dominator-type) is acceptable. Fuel injection and/or water injection systems are not allowed. Carburetor gaskets and/or spacers are limited to a maximum total height of 2.25-inches (measuring from the carburetor base to the top of the intake manifold carburetor flange surface). All engines will utilize an electric fuel pump supplied by the dyno facility and each engine builder will determine the fuel pressure. Both single and dual feed, -6 fuel line connections will be located on the DTS dyno chassis approximately 46 inches from your carburetor, so design your fuel line(s) accordingly. All engines will be supplied with specified, 91-octane, unleaded gasoline. AIR FILTER Any commercially available, street-style air filter and air filter housing is acceptable. All engines must be equipped with a 14-inch diameter x 3-inch tall air filter and air filter housing while running on the dyno. Modifications to the air filter or the air filter housing are not allowed. Filtered lids are acceptable and are considered part of the air filter housing. Velocity stacks and/or stub stacks are not allowed. Heat shields or plates between the intake manifold and carburetor, and/or the carburetor and air cleaner are prohibited. This includes any structure deemed by the event personnel as designed to take advantage of airflow in dyno installation. CAMSHAFT Any commercially available camshaft is acceptable. Camshaft must maintain OEM journal diameters as originally manufactured in production for a given engine type. Roller cam bearings are prohibited. Custom-designed and custom-ground camshafts are acceptable. Solid roller and hydraulic roller designs are acceptable. Lifters must be unmodified, out-of-the-box parts and cannot be altered in any way from their manufactured as-new state. Offset lifters are acceptable. INTAKE MANIFOLD Any commercially available, single-four barrel, single or multi-piece, cast intake manifold is acceptable. Tunnel rams, sheet-metal, and/or composite manifolds are not allowed. Porting, polishing, filling, welding and/or sizing of the interior surfaces of the intake runners and/or ports is acceptable. Modifications to the exterior surfaces of the intake ports and/or manifold, such as welding on additional material to increase port size and/or to alter the port design, are not allowed. Using an intake manifold that is designed and cast for use on a different make or family of engine is not allowed. Intake manifolds may be drilled and tapped for additional coolant paths, but additional material may not be welded on to the intake manifold for this purpose. CONNECTING RODS Any commercially available steel connecting rods are acceptable. Aluminum, titanium, or any other exotic materials are not allowed. PISTONS AND RINGS Any commercially available aluminum pistons are acceptable. Custom-made, modified, and/or coated pistons are acceptable. Compression Ratio is limited to 10.5:1. Gas ports including vertical or horizontal are prohibited. The ring package must consist of two compression rings and a single oil ring. Whatever the Compression Ratio is the formulas to calculate Compression Ratio are as follows: Formula to calculate Compression Ratio is as Follows: CR= Heads cc's + Deck cc's + Gasket cc's + Piston cc's + (Displacement X 2.0483) ?? Head cc's + Deck cc's + Gasket cc's + Piston cc's ROCKER ARMS Any commercially-available rocker arms are acceptable. The maximum rocker arm ratio remains restricted as per rules update number 6, below. HEADERS Commercially available, chassis-style exhaust headers are required. Headers must be designed to fit a 1955 or newer passenger car chassis without modification to the vehicle or the chassis. Port matching of the header flange is acceptable. Any diameter primary tubes and collectors are acceptable. Header sets that were designed and manufactured with slip-on style collectors are acceptable. Fender-well headers and headers designed for trucks are not allowed. Crankcase ventilation systems that vent to any component of the exhaust system are not allowed. Bungs for Lambda 02 sensors are acceptable and may be used during the competition; all other bungs must be capped. Thermal header wraps (such as Kevlar fabric) are not allowed. Headers and mufflers must provide a minimum of 17-inches of inside clearance to properly fit on the dyno chassis (see diagram below). Exhaust systems must be properly sealed from the header flange to the muffler inlet. MUFFLERS Only commercially available street-style mufflers are acceptable. Mufflers must remain unmodified from their original as-manufactured design. All engines must utilize two mufflers while running on the dyno. H-pipes, X-pipes, or any such connection between the left and right headers and/or the exhaust system is not allowed. All mufflers must meet the following criteria; Maximum inlet/outlet tube diameter: 3.5-inches Minimum overall case length: 10-inches Maximum overall case length: 18-inches Minimum diameter (round case): 5-inches Maximum diameter (round case): 7-inches Minimum width (oval or square case): 6-inches Maximum width (oval or square case): 10-inches Minimum thickness/height (oval or square case): 4-inches Maximum thickness/height (oval or square case): 6-inches Exhaust systems must meet the following design specifications in order to properly connect with the exhaust gas ventilation ports in the dyno cell wall (see diagram). Head pipes connecting the header collectors to the mufflers are limited to a maximum length of 6 inches and should be bent or angled in order to properly "aim" the mufflers at the ventilation ports. Head pipes connecting the header collectors to the mufflers are limited to a maximum diameter of 3.5 inches. Exhaust systems may not extend more than 42" from the rear of the engine block. Exhaust systems must provide a minimum of 17-inches of inside clearance; this clearance requirement begins at 25.5 inches behind the back of the engine block in order to clear the dyno tower. However, from the back of the engine block to the 25.5 inch point, there are no clearance issues. OIL PAN Any commercially available chassis-style wet-sump oil pan is acceptable. Oil pans must be an unmodified, out-of-the box part designed to fit a 1955 or newer American production car chassis without modification to the vehicle or chassis. Dry sump systems and vacuum pumps are not allowed. Oil pans designed for trucks are not allowed. External crankcase ventilation and/or oil drain-back systems plumbed externally that return oil to the pan are not allowed. Builders choosing to run windage screens or scrapers can do so only if they are already part of the as-manufactured oil pan design, or are attached without any modification to the block or oil pan. Oil system accumulators are not allowed. Engines that were OEM equipped with external oil pumps may utilize external oil feed line(s) with a maximum I/D of 5/8 inch. External oil feed line(s) connecting the OEM style external oil pump to the oil pan and/or the engine block, are acceptable. Belt-driven external oil pumps are not allowed. Electrically powered oil pumps are not allowed. Oil pans must remain as manufactured and unmodified. OIL All engines must contain at least five (5) quarts of motor oil during each dyno pull. Engines must be shipped "dry" to the certified dyno site, along with at least five unopened quarts of oil, to verify the oil quantity and contingency. OIL ADDITIVES Any commercially available oil additive is acceptable, but is not required. Engines must be shipped "dry" to the certified dyno site along with at least one unopened bottle of oil additive to verify contingency. WATER PUMP Any commercially available electric or mechanical water pump is acceptable. Engines using a mechanical water pump must be equipped with an operational belt and pulley drive system. Water pumps must be mounted in the OEM location. Commercially available or custom-fabricated water pump adapter plates will be permitted as long as they do not alter the OEM block mount or pump location. Remote-mounted water pumps are not allowed. Use of a cooling system thermostat is not allowed. Water "feed" connections are limited to a set diameter of 1.25 inch I.D. and water "return" connections are limited to a set diameter of 1 inch I.D. STARTER Starters will not be used in the competition and are not allowed. The DTS dynos are equipped with a built-in starter. FLYWHEEL/FLEXPLATE Any commercially available, unmodified SFI-certified domestic manual STEEL transmission flywheel is acceptable. Flexplates will not be used in the competition and are not allowed. BELLHOUSING Bellhousings will not be used in the competition and are not allowed. COATINGS Any commercially available performance coating is acceptable. The application of thermal and/or friction coatings can be performed at any time prior to the competition on any part. Coating a part is not considered a modification, and parts that cannot be legally modified, may be coated. FUEL All engines will run specified, 91-octane unleaded gasoline. Fuel is provided at the event.

jeepsr4ever

:-| That does leave it wide open

Holeshot

I'm wondering how much of the Indy crate engine would pass, that was 850 HP, as I recall. I know the rules say that the exhaust flange must be as stock, so the 401-1 heads with the MOPAR style EX flange are out, but either the SR-1 heads fully ported or fully ported AM iron heads with the Alfonse shaft rockers could be used. Somewhere around 760 HP is what won this year, as I recall. Sure would be nice to get some respect for the lowly Ramblers!!!

jeepsr4ever

Well they do say stock block

Holeshot

Rules Part 2:

PRIZE MONEY
Contestants must run the contingency sponsor product on their engine during the dyno pulls in order to qualify for contingency payouts and it is recommended that you contact each contingency sponsor to determine their payout requirements. Contestants may only claim one contingency product per category. The winning contingency sponsors will pay the following contingency awards directly to the engine builders.

First Place- $1,500 per qualified contingency category
Second Place- $1,000 per qualified contingency category
Third Place- $700 per qualified contingency category
Fourth Place- $500.00 per qualified contingency category
Fifth Place- $200.00 per qualified contingency category
Sixth Place-$100.00 per qualified contingency category

CONTINGENCY CATEGORIES
Listed are the areas of contingency product categories that are available in the Engine Masters Challenge competition.

CONTINGENCY CATEGORIES

AIR FILTER
AIR FILTER HOUSING
BALANCER
BEARINGS
CAMSHAFT
CARBURETOR
CARBURETOR SPACER
COATINGS - THERMAL
COATINGS - FRICTION
CONNECTING RODS
CRANKSHAFT
CYLINDER HEADS
ENGINE BLOCK
FASTENERS
FLYWHEEL
GASKETS
HEADERS
HOSES & FITTINGS
IGNITION SYSTEM
INTAKE MANIFOLD
MUFFLERS
OIL
OIL ADDITIVES
OIL FILTER
OIL PAN
OIL PUMP
PISTONS
PAINT
PUSHRODS
RINGS
ROCKER ARMS
SEALANTS
SPARK PLUGS
SPARK PLUG WIRES
STUD GIRDLE
TIMING BELT/CHAIN
VALVES
VALVE COVERS
VALVES SPRINGS
WATER PUMP
CAM BELT DRIVE

RULE SUPPLEMENTS, MODIFICATIONS and/or DELETIONS

PARTS AND TOOLS TRANSPORTATION (9/20/06) SUPPLEMENT Parts and or Tools for competitive entries may be shipped as outlined in TRANSPORTATION section OR these items may be hard carried to the competition. It is the sole responsibility of the competitor that these parts are on hand at the time their competitive entry (engine) is being loaded to a dyno cart for these items to be on-hand. Any parts or tools arriving late may be disqualified.
All engines must be delivered to the dyno site at least FOUR (4) business days prior to the first day of competition; any engine that arrives "late" may be disqualified from the competition.

LOCATION USE SUPLEMENT (9/15/06) WORLD PRODUCTS dynos/ facilities are banned and not available for use by any TEAM or its entry of the 2006 JEGs ENGINE MASTERS CHALLENGE for a period of 2 week prior to the competition. Dates in effect are September 18, 2006 through October 8, 2006.

(8-15 - 1) Transportation/Rule: All competing engines, parts and tools must be crated and delivered to the following address no later than September 28, 2006. The maximum allowable engine crate size is 36" x 39" x 45" tall, including the pallet. Each competitor will be allowed to ship and/or deliver a maximum of 2 engine crates

World Products
51 Trade Zone Court
Ronkonkoma, NY 11779
Attention: Keith Ferrell, Engine Masters Challenge

(8-15 - 4) Camshaft/Rule Deletion: Mushroom style and Schubeck brand or styles of lifters are not allowed.

(8-02 - 1) Headers/Rule Deletion: Commercially-available headers designed and sold with a removable pipe section for chassis clearance are acceptable but, builders choosing to run this style of header must contact the Rules Committee for a written "header exception" ruling.

(7-29 - 3) Cylinder Heads/Rule Modification: "Domestic OEM passenger car" and "aftermarket OEM replacement" cylinder heads must retain compatibility with unmodified OEM passenger car intake and exhaust bolt patterns. Aftermarket cylinder heads that maintain compatibility with OEM passenger car intake and exhaust bolt patterns are acceptable even if the aftermarket manufacturer has altered the valve angles, valve spacing, and/or valve location from the original OEM design. The Chrysler W-2 bolt patterns are allowed.

(7/29 - 4) Oil Pan/Rule Supplement: Electrically powered oil pumps are not allowed.

(4/15 - 2) Cylinder Head/Rule Modification: "Domestic OEM passenger car" and "aftermarket OEM replacement" cylinder heads must retain compatibility with unmodified OEM passenger car intake and exhaust manifolds and rocker location. Aftermarket cylinder heads that maintain compatibility with OEM passenger car intake and exhaust manifolds while maintaining the OEM-type rocker design and location are acceptable even if the aftermarket manufacturer has altered the valve angles, valve spacing, and/or valve location from the original OEM design. Valves must retain as-manufactured valve angles (+ or -1 degree), as originally cast. Cylinder head decks may be milled as long as the milling does not affect the valve angle more than the 1-degree variance allowed by the rules.

(4/15 - 3) Ignition/Rule Modification: Any commercially available ignition system including points, electronic, or capacitive discharge that utilize a single battery-powered distributor and coil are acceptable.

(4/15 - 5) Air Filter/Rule Supplement: Filtered lids are acceptable and are considered part of the air filter housing.

(4/15 - 6) Rocker Arms/Rule Deletion: Maximum rocker arm ratio is 1.8:1, unless the factory OEM passenger car engines of the same family were produced with higher than 1.8:1 ratios.

(5/31 - 7)Rocker System/Rule Supplement: Shaft-mounted rocker systems are allowed. Rocker systems must be commercially available as defined by paragraph (2) of the rules. This includes commercially available shaft rocker systems for engine types not originally equipped with shaft-mounted rockers.

Holeshot

I'm not finding what the Indy block has for bore centers, but I suppose it must be the same, or else AMC heads wouldn't fit, correct? So that leaves the increased deck height, which could be milled down to stock. Would have to propose this to the rules committee before proceeding.

Goose

you know when you look at the top ten numbers.. these guys (AMC'ers) werent that far off the pace really.. (Also I would like to take this moment for a bit of an observation) if you look at the numbers.. there arent any 900 hp engines on the list..450 to 500 horse..500 to 600 ft lbs torque..those would be real world numbers.. Just an observation, and it does confirm my belief that while 800 and 900 horse engines do exist..they don't congregate in the numbers some would believe.

Blown7

jeepsr4ever wrote
BTW Jeff what was the thickness on the top ring land you went with? I am looking at a blower motor build shortly here and I am thinking a .3125 top ring land.

I have to old "CRS" syndrome I'll look it up in my notes today.
I remember that JE Pistons engineering department had to really work at it, given the dish depth and what was left to get a ring groove in there without sacrificing strength.

Jeff

a440plus6

Blown7 wrote
jeepsr4ever wrote
BTW Jeff what was the thickness on the top ring land you went with? I am looking at a blower motor build shortly here and I am thinking a .3125 top ring land.

I have to old "CRS" syndrome I'll look it up in my notes today.
I remember that JE Pistons engineering department had to really work at it, given the dish depth and what was left to get a ring groove in there without sacrificing strength.

Jeff

CRS.....I can't remember what that is...... #-o

Holeshot

450 to 500 horse..500 to 600 ft lbs torque..those would be real world numbers..
Just an observation, and it does confirm my belief that while 800 and 900 horse engines do exist..they don't congregate in the numbers some would believe.

Those 450 to 500 HP numbers are the AVERAGES!!!

Peak HP numbers were around 670 HP, I believe!!!

82Waggy

a440plus6 wrote
CRS.....I can't remember what that is...... #-o

Can't Remember S***

jeepsr4ever

:?:

Goose

Ahh maybe I missed the peak numbers..but My point is still valid 650 hp is not 900 or 1200.. 500 real world actual non bench racing horses..is a bunch (ok maybe short suirts with nitrous etc.. but I am talking about, Build it and drive it..(not on and off the trailer) horsepower.. and If you are averaging 500 to 575..that would indicate that usable power would be something less..(cause I'm betting "Peak hp" would have been in the rpm ranges that most engines see one in a awhile..) I guess my philosophy is this: I would rather have 350 hp at 2500 rpm..than 500 horse at 7000..