Steel sleeved oil pump

zero cool

So I was reading about oil mods and thought "Oiling mods may help but by far the best way to prevent oil related engine failure is to keep up the oil pressure". Given that the oil pump housing is cast aluminum, it is no wonder the oil pump wears and drops oil pressure over time. But I thought of a way to try and reduce oil pump wear. I know that you can put in the steel mid plate and that does help. But what about pressing/casting in a steel sleeve into the housing around the oil pump gears? That would provide a harder surface around the oil pump gears to reduce wear and premature failure. How practical would this be?

Goose

I wonder also .. seems like a reasonable soloution. (Course I'm not the one has to machine either..)

zero cool

That's just it. I don't know what modifications would have to be made to the casting to make it work. It might be possible to open up the hole and cast in the steel liner. But that might interfere with something else that bolts to the engine. It might be possible to bore out the hole in the existing cover and press in a liner but if the wall thickness is an issue, that may not be an option. So I suggest the idea and let people who know what they are doing look into it. Maybe it's possible. Maybe not. It would be cool to see it happen if it would work.

jeepsr4ever

The problem we had with tis is that the plate seperated from the housing causing leakage. We tried many many coatings untill we finally landed on electroless Ni.

zero cool

I thought that was just to make it shiny bling. I didn't know it was actually functional. Next time the timing cover comes off, one of those nickle plated ones is going in it's place.

FuzzFace2

The other thing to think about is the thermal properties between the different metals used. You have the housing, the gears and now a sleeve all moving at different rates! Me thinking that can‚Äôt be good. Besides the sides of the housing you have the floor or roof depending how you look at it, that wears too how would this be fixed? It was said some where that if the pump gears where made bigger (wider & longer) you could then have the housing (timing cover) machined for the new gears. Now we would have to look at cost! What would the new gear set go for, then machining of the housing? And the big one could you find a machine shop that is capable of doing it right! But as said here don‚Äôt know if machining of housing is even possible. I have been doing something dangerous THINKING !!! Why did the engineers at AMC make the oil pump gears that size? What would happen if they where bigger (wider & longer) so the housing could be machined and what would this do to the oil system? You may be thinking it would ONLY be a couple of thou difference, well open up your main & rod bearings and see what happens bet it won‚Äôt be pretty! IF the bigger gears pump more oil where does that oil come from? Still only have 5 qts. In the pan and from what I hear the oil does not get back to the pan fast enough and you would run out of oil, no oil no PSI right? /dangerous I am no expert‚Ä¶‚Ä¶..but I did stay in a Holiday Inn once! Dave ----

zero cool

FuzzFace2 wrote
The other thing to think about is the thermal properties between the different metals used. You have the housing, the gears and now a sleeve all moving at different rates! Me thinking that can‚Äôt be good.

I figured since they can make aluminum engine blocks with steel cylinder liners, they could do it in an oil pump housing.

FuzzFace2 wrote
Besides the sides of the housing you have the floor or roof depending how you look at it, that wears too how would this be fixed?

They already make a steel midplate for just that purpose.

FuzzFace2 wrote
It was said some where that if the pump gears where made bigger (wider & longer) you could then have the housing (timing cover) machined for the new gears.

What does this have to do with improving reliability? That's all I'm thinking about. Reducing the wear on the pump housing so it continues to supply the same oil volume and pressure as factory new for a longer period of time without having to tear the oil pump apart and replace pieces.

FuzzFace2

What I didn‚Äôt have it covered with my last line ‚ÄúI am no expert‚Ä¶‚Ä¶..but I did stay in a Holiday Inn once!‚Äù Quote1: With todays technology it may be possible? Quote2: When you where talking steel sleeve I was thinking where the gear mesh side to housing is. I was talking about the end of the gears opposite end of the midplate. I guess a cup like sleeve was what you where talking about? Quote3: improving reliability? None and I am sorry I did not add any thing to that topic. It was added for food for thought is all. Food again: what is the mileage on the motors being pulled apart where you find the pump/housing bad? Was the oil/filter changed every 2500 to 3000 miles. It is nice to have a housing/pump that is more wear resistance than stock but do you think our motors will be put thru the every day hell they did back in the day? I think not but it would be nice to be able to repair a housing that is worn out and why I said about the bigger gears. Dave ----

Goose

Well the trul amazing thing is the number of AMC's that are still doodling along out there with 2 or 3 psi at idle..20 psi max.. and driving every day pushing plows and daily commutes.

zero cool

FuzzFace2 wrote
What I didn‚Äôt have it covered with my last line ‚ÄúI am no expert‚Ä¶‚Ä¶..but I did stay in a Holiday Inn once!‚Äù

Quote1: With todays technology it may be possible?

That's why I asked if it was possible to produce something now, not why it wasn't done in the first place.

FuzzFace2 wrote
Quote2: When you where talking steel sleeve I was thinking where the gear mesh side to housing is. I was talking about the end of the gears opposite end of the midplate. I guess a cup like sleeve was what you where talking about?

The bottom and sides are where most of the wear takes place. I figured that someone who knows more than me could chime in about lining the top. I didn't want to suggest any particular solution because I don't claim to know what's possible and what's not.

FuzzFace2 wrote
Quote3: improving reliability? None and I am sorry I did not add any thing to that topic. It was added for food for thought is all.

That was the whole point of the suggestion.

FuzzFace2 wrote
Food again: what is the mileage on the motors being pulled apart where you find the pump/housing bad? Was the oil/filter changed every 2500 to 3000 miles.
It is nice to have a housing/pump that is more wear resistance than stock but do you think our motors will be put thru the every day hell they did back in the day? I think not but it would be nice to be able to repair a housing that is worn out and why I said about the bigger gears.

Dave ----

When I get the freeze plugs fixed in my freshly rebuilt 401 (machine shop screwed them up), I'll be driving my 1977 Cherokee every day, taking it off road and even towing with it. It's going to get every bit of abuse that people threw at these vehicles back in the day. I would like to have the oil pump last as long as possible, giving me the oil pressure that keeps the engine alive.

But it sounds like someone smarter than me has already come up with the solution, a nickle plating on the cover. So that's what I'm going to go with when it's time to get into the timing cover next.

FuzzFace2

Goose wrote
Well the trul amazing thing is the number of AMC's that are still doodling along out there with 2 or 3 psi at idle..20 psi max.. and driving every day pushing plows and daily commutes.

Oh yea raise the idle to get the light to go off!!

zero cool wrote
I would like to have the oil pump last as long as possible, giving me the oil pressure that keeps the engine alive.

And with that said and the money you have into your motor I would think you will be changing your oil/filter around every 3k miles, unlike some that may have been changed 4 or 5 times in it‚Äôs life of 100k. Dirty oil is what kills a motor/pump, keep it clean and it will last a long time even with stock parts.

Do ‚ÄúI‚Äù think the nickel cover is a good thing yes and think it‚Äôs just what you are looking for. If I have the money when I do my next motor I may go for one too.
Dave ----

Goose

fuzz face.. you need to sell that 75 gremlin x to me so I can go racing again. :lo1l:

zero cool

FuzzFace2 wrote
And with that said and the money you have into your motor I would think you will be changing your oil/filter around every 3k miles, unlike some that may have been changed 4 or 5 times in it‚Äôs life of 100k. Dirty oil is what kills a motor/pump, keep it clean and it will last a long time even with stock parts.

Do ‚ÄúI‚Äù think the nickel cover is a good thing yes and think it‚Äôs just what you are looking for. If I have the money when I do my next motor I may go for one too.
Dave ----

As soon as the break in is done, the 401 will live on full synthetic with 5K intervals. If I ever have to get into the engine again, the nickle plated cover will go on.

And since my CJ's 360 is still on the engine stand, I do believe it will be getting a nickle plated cover soon. :t: