Camshaft opinion

XtremeOverKill

I think I've found someone whom I feel confident about taking advantage of the 0.904 lifter.

What's your opinion of this:
Engle Cam 52/54
209/214 durations intake and exhaust respectively... both at 0.050
on a 112 LSA
Intake Lift 0.489
Exhaust Lift 0.501

The largest lift numbers I've seen offered for AMC

And here's the engine
9.5 CR
Port Matched Thorley headers
Stock 727 Trans.
2.73 R&P - yes I know it sucks but I didn't choose it
31 x 10.50 Tires
and about a 5000 lb Grand Wag.

What do you think?
My only other thought was to go with a 214/214 duration I/E... for a little more top end. What do you think?[/b]

jeepmonster

XtremeOverKill wrote
I think I've found someone whom I feel confident about taking advantage of the 0.904 lifter.

What's your opinion of this:
Engle Cam 52/54
209/214 durations intake and exhaust respectively... both at 0.050
on a 112 LSA
Intake Lift 0.489
Exhaust Lift 0.501

The largest lift numbers I've seen offered for AMC

And here's the engine
9.5 CR
Port Matched Thorley headers
Stock 727 Trans.
2.73 R&P - yes I know it sucks but I didn't choose it
31 x 10.50 Tires
and about a 5000 lb Grand Wag.

What do you think?
My only other thought was to go with a 214/214 duration I/E... for a little more top end. What do you think?[/b]

I'd go 214/214, youll get more power all around I'd say, not just on top, 214 is still quite mild and should still perform great with the stock trans and gears. The 112 dg lobe sep is a plus as well, build more vacuum at idle and torqe at low to mid RPM's and broadens the overall curve.

Dusty

:? I definately look for a little more duration, but thats a nice mild grind. Shoot im running 222/222 @.50" on .479 lift 114 LSA granted its in a 401 but even a 360 can benefit, my understanding is Duration contributes to increasing Dynamic compression (some technical term coined by some engineer and i dont even know if thats the right word :!: ) the longer that valve is open the more air/fuel it can suck to more for the engine to compress the more power you'll make.

jeepmonster

Dusty wrote
:? I definately look for a little more duration, but thats a nice mild grind.

Shoot im running 222/222 @.50" on .479 lift 114 LSA granted its in a 401 but even a 360 can benefit, my understanding is Duration contributes to increasing Dynamic compression (some technical term coined by some engineer and i dont even know if thats the right word :!: ) the longer that valve is open the more air/fuel it can suck to more for the engine to compress the more power you'll make.

The long stroke to bore ratio fo the 360 allows for more forgiving cam selection with respect to duration as long as you don't go to crazy and the torque converter and rear gear are tuned to it. They make a TON of torque stock and it's hard to kill that torque with a cam below 225 deg @ .050 I would go with 214/216 .490/.501 lift and 112 deg lobe sep in that 5000 lb cruiser, will give a nice balance of stump pulling torque through the mid range and plenty of pull to 5500 RPM, the headers will work really well with it. The 209 cam is going to run out of breath below 5000 RPM.

tufcj

Have you checked with www.reedcams.com ? They custom grind cams, and have lobe profiles specifically for the .904 lifter. They've been involved in AMCs since the 60s.

Bob.
tufcj

XtremeOverKill

I should have turned to you guys earlier.....

I have not tried Reed yet.

I tried ISKY...they attempted to help, but never called back even after some repetitive calls. ISKY droped the ball.
Comp basically said they can't help - and in a very rude manner may I add
Crane - Didn't bother to contact me other than sending a cam sheet. No explination.
CamCraft dude was really cool, but only gave me a minor step above stock. 205/205 on a 110 LSA.
Howards Suggested a 212 or 214/224 and lifts around 0.476 and a 112 LSA. - I was kinda interested in this. But he made no mention of the 0.904 lifter
Engle - gave me a confidence that they knew what they were talking about, and how to take advantage of the 0.904 lifter. Also offering some of the Largest lift #s around. @0.501

Reed - I'll call them tomorrow, and post the results.

This thread has become very interesting... the guys on the AMC forum are telling me that Engle cams are great for bracket/circle racing, but not street. And that a Comp cam is best for street. I"m not trying to par two groups against each other, I'm interested in learning...... Lets talk.

XtremeOverKill

Just talked to Reed ....

They Suggested:
Intake Duration @ 0.050 : 210
Exhaust duration @0.050: 217
LSA 112
Intake Lift - 0.470
Exhaust Lift - 0.480
Installed at 108 - advanced 4 degrees

Opinions? Thoughts?

Dusty

I still think 210 duration is too conservative on the intake side, you're cutting her off at the nuts i know she can suck more air than that you'll find with a short winded cam like that that she'll be asphixiating herself in the 4500 range, open her up let her breath. 214 is where you want to be on intake, min. Jeep monster is right on the money. Look at how many guys build AMC's based on the old philosophies and then complain that they are stump pullers but that they tach out easy its because they run out of air withthe short intake durations that everyone likes to grind for them. Don't be bashful that 214/224 doesnt sound half bad either :wink: Id probably run that one in a 360 at 9.5:1 in a 401 9.5:1 i might be inclined to be more agressive and look to something in the 218 or even 220/224 or like mine 222/222

XtremeOverKill

Alright....I'm down to my final hours on this decision.

My only other thought/concern is for piston to valve contact.

Running the lift of 0.501 but I'm running shallow dish Flat Top Mahle pistons.

The pistons have a deck clearance of 0.093 and my valve reliefs are 5cc's. Anyone think I'd have issues with piston to valve contact?

If NOT...ie no contact problem I'll call Engle today to order the 214/214 grind.

Many thanks to all who have contributed and I hope to post my findings and build as the time goes.

FrankNB

I was curious.. and looked up my camshaft.. It's seems within the specs that Dusty was mentionning. It's the summit 8600.. It works good, I just screwed up my timing timing advance.. but I'll fix that when I have time.. I also need to put tubes in my carb for high angle.. but it does sound aggressive, I idle at 1000 rpm.. below that it's pretty rough.. I've got a Q-jet with an upside down adapter plate.. Camshaft, Hydraulic Flat Tappet, Advertised Duration 272/282, Lift .472/.496, American Motors, V8, Each From low-end torque to top-end horsepower--and everything in between--one of our Summit cams has you covered. Assembly lube is included. Vendor Summit Product Line Summit Camshafts Cam Style Hydraulic flat tappet Basic Operating RPM Range 1,500-4,500 RPM Intake Duration 050 inch Lift 214 Exhaust Duration 050 inch Lift 224 Advertised Intake Duration 272 Advertised Exhaust Duration 282 Intake Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio 0.472 Exhaust Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio 0.496 Lobe Separation (degrees) 112 Intake Valve Lash (in) 0.000 Exhaust Valve Lash (in) 0.000 Grind Number (Not Specified) CARB EO Number (Not Specified) Quantity Sold individually.

eight

What size engine you runnin Frank?

FrankNB

Honda Civic Vortex.. 1.6 liter with 1200HP, and a big fartpipe.. 8) Actually, it's a 1979 360 out of a Wagoneer.. it was rebuilt this summer for the first time... not bad for a 25 year old engine eh?? I also put the Edelbrock intake(non-egr) and Q-jet 800 cfm carb.. I also did the TFI coil upgrade.. It works decent, I wouldn't be much of a challenge for all those crazy mofos on this site, but I still love my jeep just as much... :oops:

jeepmonster

XtremeOverKill wrote
Just talked to Reed ....

They Suggested:
Intake Duration @ 0.050 : 210
Exhaust duration @0.050: 217
LSA 112
Intake Lift - 0.470
Exhaust Lift - 0.480
Installed at 108 - advanced 4 degrees

Opinions? Thoughts?

Have them grind it with 4 more degrees intake, a little more lift 480-490 intake keep the exaust duration they gave you and go to 490-500 lift, they are professionals with AMC motors, but they still lean on the conservative side on the intake with the grind they gave you, the 112 lobe sep will allow for slightly more intake duration without any loss in vacuum or torque down low, a broader power curve is what this is all about!

newt

Wow, a post with lots of good info. Reed offers a cam lobe w/ 214 @ .05, 264 adv, .48 lift according to their web page. Might be about perfect for your intake side. I've been messing w/ cams just like these on desktop dyno for some time. Using the @.05 #s, for my 401 anything under 214 falls off before 5000 rpm. Anything over 218 has a week low end - which is really imortant for me w/ rockcrawling in mind. Let us know how it goes.

XtremeOverKill

Well lets see if I can publish what I have learned. - Granted the cam is not in the engine yet, but from numbers alone here's what I've gathered. When talking to Isky - the tech guy; Ron, said he's looking for a cam with relatively low duration and extremly high lift, to yield max torque. I've read in magazines - doing dyno tests on a SBC 350 - the smaller the LSA angle, the higher the torque, and the lower the torque is on the RPM. But a LSA of 114 - while it would be more streetable, didn't do as nice on the dyno as the 110 LSA. Thus for a street motor it was determined that about a 112 would be ideal. ( The cams were of identical grinds) So what I decided to go with was: Engle K54/K54 - 215 duration @ 0.050 with 0.501 Valve lift, New retainers, and double springs- measureing 110 seat pressure and 285 at 0.500" valve lift. I've also learned the gross valve lift does not endanger piston to valve contact as much as the duration does. - I didn't know this before - I thought it was all lift. Hope to get the block and heads from the machinist on Friday - will begin assembly after ski trip. Pics will be posted showing doccumentation.

jeepmonster

XtremeOverKill wrote
Well lets see if I can publish what I have learned. - Granted the cam is not in the engine yet, but from numbers alone here's what I've gathered.

When talking to Isky - the tech guy; Ron, said he's looking for a cam with relatively low duration and extremly high lift, to yield max torque.

I've read in magazines - doing dyno tests on a SBC 350 - the smaller the LSA angle, the higher the torque, and the lower the torque is on the RPM.

But a LSA of 114 - while it would be more streetable, didn't do as nice on the dyno as the 110 LSA. Thus for a street motor it was determined that about a 112 would be ideal. ( The cams were of identical grinds)

So what I decided to go with was:

Engle K54/K54 - 215 duration @ 0.050 with 0.501 Valve lift,
New retainers, and double springs- measureing 110 seat pressure and 285 at 0.500" valve lift.

I've also learned the gross valve lift does not endanger piston to valve contact as much as the duration does. - I didn't know this before - I thought it was all lift.

Hope to get the block and heads from the machinist on Friday - will begin assembly after ski trip.

Pics will be posted showing doccumentation.

That is an interesting grind, should have a great power band and LOTS of torque!

XtremeOverKill

Monstor:

That is an interesting grind, should have a great power band and LOTS of torque!

MmmmmmmMMMmmMm 8) 8) 8) 8) Music to my ears!

shimniok

Ran across this just now... wondering how it all turned out? I'm curious if you use rpm from 4500-5500 a lot? I don't. (FSJ with 33" tires, 3.73:1 gears, 727 trans) The auto trans shifts at 4000, tops, unless I were to manually shift (TransGo kit). And esp with the ultra tall gears and ultra heavy vehicle, seems like you'd want plenty of power from idle to 3000... but I'm still trying to figure all that out for my 401 build up. So far I'm still leaning towards high CR (9.5:1), small tube headers, Edel dual plane intake, and the Edelbrock Performer cam or custom grinding to match a factory Pontiac cam I found detailed online. According to desktop dyno both outshine many mainstream competitors in torque from 2000-3500. Edel has highest hp @ 4000; Pontiac slightly less but more low end torque. The Pontiac pattern puts the peak torque perfectly at my hwy cruise rpm (2500). Haven't looked at some of these other cam makers' offerings just yet (howard, reed, engle) Michael

XtremeOverKill

Engine and rotating assembly is still at the balancer :smile: But I will post results and build progress as it goes.

fulsizjeep

Hi... Wondering if you got that combo put together and running. My Gr Wag is set up very similar to Shimniok's but w/401; Comp 260H, Edlebrock SP2P, 750 AFB, .030 over (not sure type of piston tho) and Jacobs Omni Magnum ignition. Running 33's or 32's, I am pretty much topped out at 90 on a flat run. Looking at what it takes to get wider power band... Thanks